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mzplcg



Member Since: 26 May 2010
Location: Warwickshire. England. The Commonwealth.
Posts: 4029

United Kingdom 2014 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Corris Grey

Flashman wrote:
Think I'll stick with my Td6 for now until hydrogen conversions and filling stations are common place (existing cars can be easily converted, but the politicians won't publicise this!).


Hydrogen is about as clean an option as Electric. The pollution simply moves from the tailpipe to the fuel production facility. Combine that with the dangers of highly compressed, volatile gas in a vessel which could collide with many other things and the risks simply don't stack up in favour of it.

The actual manufacture of hydrogen gas is seriously inefficient as well, much less than using petrol in an IC engine even. You should also look at exactly how hydrogen is made as well. Basically it is mostly extracted (atomically separated) from carbon rich materials to which is is bound which releases more carbon into the atmosphere. Isn't that the same carbon as we're constantly being told is melting the polar ice caps?

As for a scrappage scheme it won't happen anytime soon. Certainly not under a Conservative government. Just look how many Tory voters (middle England) run diesel cars, from the Big saloons right down to the wife's runabout. I've looked up and down the lane where we live today (Dog walking) and every car except my wife's Jag XFR is a diesel. 11 diesels, 1 petrol.

And the thing is, nobody gives a s.h.i.t. This all comes down to running cost. Diesel gives more MPG. Even the tree hugging fraternity who claim they want to buy a "green" car are looking at the cost of road tax and fuel if they are honest. There are plenty in government who well know this and won't rock that particular boat. They might pay it some lip service to be seen to be sympathetic to the cause, but the reality is it will only ever be lip service.

Post #426323 4th Feb 2017 10:07pm
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Roystonh



Member Since: 21 Nov 2011
Location: Kent
Posts: 395

United Kingdom 

Some good points made here - read today that the scheme coukd be up to £8.5k per car. Similar scheme in France and there was a big shift towards electric cars.

Alternative fuel en mass will be a long time coming and I'm happy with my 30mpg from the FFRR, got used to the £100 fill up as well as £500 per year road tax. We have become acclimatised to the financial commitment as we just love these cars and nothing else comes close to the driving experience. This is my third after leaving the brand and returning each time as the other cars I had didn't come close. As far as being taxed or banned in cities, well I can use my Ford petrol for that if it comes to it.

Daft thing is that electric cars still pollute - just eleaewhere with the production activities.

I imagine they will have a go, but it will have little impact unless the govt put very heavy taxes on diesel fuel. 2005 L322 Vogue Gold gone
2006 L322 Vogue Black gone
2011 L322 Vogue Silver gone
2011 L322 Autobiography Black gone
2015 L405 Autobiography LWB Black gone
2019 L405 P400e Range Rover Autobiography LWB Eiger grey / black roof gone
2001 P38a 30th Anniversary Wimbledon Green gone
2019 L405 P525 Autobiography LWB British Racing Green

Post #426332 4th Feb 2017 10:56pm
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Mikey



Member Since: 10 Jan 2008
Location: Dundee
Posts: 1684

Scotland 

£8.5k Shocked

Going to keep my old rotbox of a Freelander, just in case Whistle

Post #426333 4th Feb 2017 11:05pm
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Robert



Member Since: 25 Oct 2011
Location: Perigueux
Posts: 2277

France 2007 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Zambezi Silver

The whole story with small diesels came from France. When they decided to go heavily into nuclear energy with the EDF (partly state owned then) Their big oil companies (partly state owned) were affraid of loosing the diesel sales. So the idiots in gouvernement launched the idea of diesel for everyone... That market boomed, small diesels were sold with a state premium (paid out of the vat income)

Now even these idiots see that pollution is a huge problem and the bigger cities are banning diesels. Everyone needs a "vignet" at 5 euros behind the windscreen. On the vignet is a number 0 to 5. Diesels older than 10 years are 5 electric cars are 0, lpg and hydrocarb. Fuels are 1 etc. In 2018 all the 5 cars will be banned anyway.

ofcourse this is not an issue with trucks, busses and airplanes...but you are not allowed to burn some logs in your fireplace in Paris.

In short, yes polution is a huge problem, nobody does anything, carindustry and oil companies are still protected by the corrupt politicians but YOU outthere, you will be punished, you've got to pay.....and the only thing we do is moaning on a forum. Have a nice moanday Mr. Green

Post #426365 5th Feb 2017 10:19am
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87RJD



Member Since: 01 Dec 2013
Location: Wokingham
Posts: 103

United Kingdom 2007 Range Rover Supercharged 4.2 SC V8 Java Black

martinf wrote:
I suspect that much of the pollution comes from lorries, buses and taxis. What are they doing about them?
Its easy to target cars but many of the newer ones have DPFs and are probably not the main problem. It would be nice to be reassured that the targets for action are the main cause of the problem.
Hi, lorries and buses are also being targeted, have a look at one show Monday evening, at a feature on what Waitrose have been doing with gas trucks and double deck trailers to reduce pollution SC 4.2, 2012 face lifted, 25K miles, 1 previous owner
Triumph TR6 1973
Triumph Bonneville 1970
Previous:
2002 TD6
Merc SL500
Escort RS Cosworth
RR 3.9 Vogue
4.2 E type Jag replica (challenger)
Escort RS2000 (many)
Escort RS 1600 Turbo

Post #426383 5th Feb 2017 11:25am
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Flashman



Member Since: 05 Jun 2011
Location: Windsor & Brentwood
Posts: 1227

England 2011 Range Rover Autobiography TDV8 Santorini Black

mzplcg wrote:

Hydrogen is about as clean an option as Electric. The pollution simply moves from the tailpipe to the fuel production facility. Combine that with the dangers of highly compressed, volatile gas in a vessel which could collide with many other things and the risks simply don't stack up in favour of it.

The actual manufacture of hydrogen gas is seriously inefficient as well, much less than using petrol in an IC engine even. You should also look at exactly how hydrogen is made as well. Basically it is mostly extracted (atomically separated) from carbon rich materials to which is is bound which releases more carbon into the atmosphere. Isn't that the same carbon as we're constantly being told is melting the polar ice caps?


Sure but electric currently requires massive battery packs which are terrible for the environment, have limited lifespan and are very heavy. I am sure engineers can design an accident proof container that is safe for cars like the LPG tanks but stronger. As to the production efficiency, you can make hydrogen when during off peak hours and create it using solar, wind, hydro or tidal power taking up the excess production so not wasting it. I am sure it will also get more efficient as time goes on as with any product. It only needs water as an input so not really that polluting.

It might end up being a mixture of the two, electric motors on the car with a hydrogen fuel cell converting the gas to power as and when needed. The key is to make the technology environmentally friendly not just the fuel. Tom

Current Drive
2011 4.4 TDV8 Autobiography - Santorini Black - Ivory Leather

Previous Drives
2004 Model Vogue Td6 (Touchscreen) - Java Black - Parchment Leather
1994 RR Classic 3.9 V8 Soft dash - Niagara Grey - Grey Leather
1972 Series III SWB Safari - Green (Hand Painted) - Black Plastic

Post #426546 6th Feb 2017 10:53am
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mzplcg



Member Since: 26 May 2010
Location: Warwickshire. England. The Commonwealth.
Posts: 4029

United Kingdom 2014 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Corris Grey

Maybe, but most hydrogen is produced by separating it from a carbon based product such as Methane (CH4). Using water to make Hydrogen is hugely inefficient, kind of like nuclear fusion. Needs way more energy to make it than it actually produces.

Battery technology is improving all the time, as is the output from solar panels. Ultimately this is the way things will go with lots of micro-generation and multiple small storage like the Tesla Powerwall. None of that requires burning fossil fuels.

Slightly OT here, but I do wonder how much we would need from the grid if every house had a few solar panels, a small wind turbine and something like a powerwall unit.

More on topic, does anyone know how clean the exhaust is from the big diesels which are run on natural gas? (CNG) Perhaps making the trucks and buses use a cleaner fuel would help.

Post #426552 6th Feb 2017 12:14pm
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p38arover



Member Since: 16 Dec 2015
Location: Western Sydney
Posts: 1516

Australia 2004 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Adriatic Blue

Re solar panels, my experience is that clouds kill production. I have 3kW system (16 panels) which has generated 22MWh of electricity in the past 6.5 years - and we get a lot of sun.

Are clouds and rain a problem in the UK? Cool Ron B. VK2OTC
2004 L322 V8 Auto
2007 Yamaha XJR1300
Previous: 1983, 1986 RRC; 1995, 1996 P38A; 1995 Disco1; 1984 V8 County 110; Series IIA

Post #426555 6th Feb 2017 12:49pm
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RR2008HSE



Member Since: 06 Jan 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2932

Canada 2008 Range Rover HSE 4.4 V8 Java Black

There are many good things about hydrogen, but a little H2 sitting around won't get you very far. Hydrogen must be cooled and compressed in order to get the energy density needed in a car. That extra packaging energy is the biggest mark against H2. If you have a LOT of free energy around, storing it as H2 can have its advantages, but if you are grabbing H's off methane and driving the reaction with coal fired power, then 'no'.

Post #426766 7th Feb 2017 7:30pm
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