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AJGalaxy2012



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
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United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Bonatti Grey
Toyota Hydrogen Car Production

Nice video of the Toyota Hydrogen Car production line, oh my, it does look very complex and cumbersome.

 BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6


Last edited by AJGalaxy2012 on 27th Dec 2022 2:55pm. Edited 1 time in total

Post #651714 27th Dec 2022 11:31am
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Andy S



Member Since: 16 Jun 2013
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United Kingdom 2015 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Aintree Green

Complex and cumbersome eh, so like an internal combustion engine then……

Post #651720 27th Dec 2022 1:15pm
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AJGalaxy2012



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
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On a fuel that costs a shed load more to produce and is full of issues. Apart from that it's great. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

Post #651723 27th Dec 2022 2:55pm
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Phoenix



Member Since: 16 May 2022
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Well that's it then, no point bothering is there?

If you think Lithium or even Aluminium based batteries are the future, you need to give your head a wobble.

Hydrogen is essentially at the Mk.1 video tape recorder stage, it needs someone to put thought and money into it to get it moving. Personally I'll never consider a BEV to be a viable or sustainable mode of transport - for me. Hydrogen, maybe not this iteration, or possibly the next one - has real possibilities and doesn't rely on a relatively rare resource that is difficult to mine, handle, recycle or dispose of (and could be used as a blunt weapon against us by the producing countries). Aluminium batteries have promise, but still rely upon electrical power generation, not to produce the fuel but to 'be' the fuel. Electricity is very difficult and expensive to bunker, hydrocarbon fuels and hydrogen fuels can be bunkered relatively easily and cheaply - and require a very small amount of electrical energy to distribute - most bunkering sites can be run from <100kW generator in the event of a power network failure, for whatever reason.

Post #651724 27th Dec 2022 3:11pm
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AJGalaxy2012



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
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United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Bonatti Grey

The major problem with Hydrogen is it take 3 x the amount of power to obtain it than it creates when it's used. So you can use wind turbines but you may as well just load the electricity into batteries and get 3 x more energy in terms of miles if you use a fuel cell'd vehicle, if you put it into an ICE then its nine times. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

Post #651734 27th Dec 2022 5:14pm
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Weegie



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That may be as things stand currently but future development may, possibly will, change that.
Who knows? Electric vehicles are the current wonder but then diesel was a few years ago. John
2008 Stornoway Grey 3.6 Tdv8 Vogue
2005 TD6 Java Black Vogue - Written off!!
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MasseyFerguson 152 - No electronics!! - Sold

Post #651737 27th Dec 2022 5:50pm
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AJGalaxy2012



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
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Just watch this from 06:10 professor David Cebon - Cambridge University, he explains all about Hydrogen and why it reall will not and can not work cost effectively.

 BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

Post #651749 27th Dec 2022 8:37pm
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Phoenix



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Well that's certainly one opinion. The screenshot looks like clickbait TBH
Here's a more balanced view - from 2018, so presumably things will have progressed.

https://www.greencarfuture.com/misc/hydrog...advantages

I think the biggest problem Hydrogen has is the 'back to the caves' eco-mentalists don't like it because it extends the status-quo rather than forcing a step change.

ETA - just looked again at the video in the first post because something was bothering me....
Aside from it being no more complex than a typical BEV build, it is almost certainly a pre-production workshop, a lot of the processes being carried out would/should be automated and the tested assemblies delivered to the line for rolling assembly. Aside from that, Toyota in line with most manufacturers are notoriously controlling of any filming or images from their production or pre-production / testing facilities, as such, they will carefully curate the message they want to send in the video.

Post #651750 27th Dec 2022 8:46pm
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KurtVerbose



Member Since: 08 Aug 2010
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Switzerland 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

Phoenix wrote:
Personally I'll never consider a BEV to be a viable or sustainable mode of transport - for me.


That's an open mind ready to look at all the facts and have a reasoned debate.... Thumbs Up

Post #651757 27th Dec 2022 9:57pm
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Phoenix



Member Since: 16 May 2022
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I work with BEV's every day and have done for several years - and consequently have completed the training and familiarisation required by several manufacturers, I've learned enough to know that they don't fit my lifestyle out of work, nor am I happy to adapt to the requirements & constraints ownership imposes on people. That's why I added the qualifier 'for me.'

In my experience:-
BEV's have a very low MTBF compared to ICE, not just one manufacturer either, sometimes its an ancillary component that fails, sometimes a core component, repair times are not too bad - once we can get the parts. Possibly we just see a lot of 'friday cars', talking to other network tech's, I don't think so.

Post #651763 27th Dec 2022 10:55pm
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AJGalaxy2012



Member Since: 11 Jun 2018
Location: Gainsborough
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United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Bonatti Grey

Phoenix wrote:
Well that's certainly one opinion. The screenshot looks like clickbait TBH
Here's a more balanced view - from 2018, so presumably things will have progressed.

https://www.greencarfuture.com/misc/hydrog...advantages

I think the biggest problem Hydrogen has is the 'back to the caves' eco-mentalists don't like it because it extends the status-quo rather than forcing a step change.


I think it's a little inaccurate to claim your alternative view is more balanced, Prof Cebon IMHO is very factual about Hydrogen and explains the reasoning behind his analysis and outcomes.

It was very interesting looking at the article in the link you provided, and certainly some different angles. The table toward the end however speaks volumes about the efficiency of the various fuel technologies to propel a vehicle:-

Fossil Fuel 13%
Hydrogen 22%
Electricity 73%

Toyota with their Miria Hydrogen car have had some difficulties with air pollution blocking the filters to the fuel cell, some users having to have the costly filters changed every month.

One the for sure, necessity is the mother of invention, there will be a lot of inventing going on over the next few years. BMW i3 Electric Car
2012 Full Fat RR 4.4 TDV8 (now gone)
2006 VW Touareg 3.0 TDi V6

Post #651771 28th Dec 2022 3:47am
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Phoenix



Member Since: 16 May 2022
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It's not inaccurate at all, the link presents pro's and con's as they were seen in 2018, I can't see any bias although the information is pretty lightweight in content. TBH it was the first article I came across that didn't appear to have an agenda. By your signature, you've already become convinced by the BEV option, so you're going to have some bias, unconscious or otherwise.

Clearly the efficiencies are based on the known technology in 2018 also, I'd expect the figures to be somewhat different by now.

I do agree on one point, both technologies have a long way to go before they become ubiquitous and reliable.

Post #651773 28th Dec 2022 7:16am
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SamThomas



Member Since: 12 Nov 2021
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United Kingdom 2003 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Baltic Blue

Weegie wrote:
That may be as things stand currently but future development may, possibly will, change that.
Who knows? Electric vehicles are the current wonder but then diesel was a few years ago.


Which is why I am sceptical about the "experts".

What, if they have got it wrong again - the infrastructure required to change to EV's is far more reaching than the shift from petrol to diesel.

Post #651785 28th Dec 2022 9:47am
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KurtVerbose



Member Since: 08 Aug 2010
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Switzerland 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Stornoway Grey

Phoenix wrote:
I work with BEV's every day and have done for several years - and consequently have completed the training and familiarisation required by several manufacturers, I've learned enough to know that they don't fit my lifestyle out of work, nor am I happy to adapt to the requirements & constraints ownership imposes on people. That's why I added the qualifier 'for me.'

In my experience:-
BEV's have a very low MTBF compared to ICE, not just one manufacturer either, sometimes its an ancillary component that fails, sometimes a core component, repair times are not too bad - once we can get the parts. Possibly we just see a lot of 'friday cars', talking to other network tech's, I don't think so.


Ok, point taken.

For the record, I'm for any technology that gets us to net zero. I don't have an axe to grind either way re BEV vs hydrogen. Each has their problems and benefits. As you've written BEV's need to sort out the sourcing and recycling of their battery materials.

As for reliability, there are a lot of BEV owners who've clocked up some impressive miles with older vehicles. When I look at the odd forum I don't see much difference between BEV's and ICE's. If anything it's the BEV's that seem more reliable. This forum is a case in point.

I'm really just interested in the numbers, and 3 times the energy costs just so you can fill up in a few mins would make me favour a BEV, especially as I can refuel a BEV mostly at home. I just think at the moment for road transport BEV's make a lot of sense and I'd rather hydrogen was used to get aeroplanes and even ships off fossil fuels.

Post #651791 28th Dec 2022 11:48am
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JayGee



Member Since: 27 Jul 2021
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United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Orkney Grey

SamThomas wrote:
Weegie wrote:
That may be as things stand currently but future development may, possibly will, change that.
Who knows? Electric vehicles are the current wonder but then diesel was a few years ago.


Which is why I am sceptical about the "experts".

What, if they have got it wrong again - the infrastructure required to change to EV's is far more reaching than the shift from petrol to diesel.

The 'experts' didn't get it wrong about diesel as at the time the main issue was CO2 emissions and for anyone doing a lot of miles like me diesel is still the fuel of choice by a fair margin. The issue with all future tech is that the 'future' is very difficult to predict and different power sources will have to compete at the same time until a solution emerges. In the early days of the internal combustion engine users had to deal with scarcity of fuelling stations and other infrastructure and likley for a lot of people a horse was still a viable mode of transport but that doesn't mean we should have kept the horse. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

Post #651930 29th Dec 2022 1:26pm
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