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RRPhil



Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 908

United Kingdom 

Please note – The following applies to the ZF 5HP24 transmission fitted in the ’02-’05MY 4.4 BMW V8 L322. The GM 5L40-E transmission fitted in ’02-‘06MY 3.0 TD6 and the ZF 6HP26 transmission fitted post-‘06 (to both petrol & diesel models) will have different characteristics.

To save length and weight ZF (very unusually) didn’t fit a torsional vibration damper to the 5HP24 torque converter lock-up clutch. Instead, at low engine speeds, the LUC is controlled to continuously slip to absorb the driveline vibration. The LUC therefore has 3 modes of operation – off, ‘continuous slip’ & locked.

Anytime that you’re driving at light to medium throttle openings in 3rd gear or above at speeds less than 56mph the LUC will be operating in continuous slip mode. The LUC never locks at speeds below 56mph (higher speeds at larger throttle openings). If the vibration you’re feeling immediately disappears when you reach 56mph on a light throttle, in either 4th or 5th gears (doesn’t matter which) then the LUC or its control system is faulty. If the vibration disappears when you select ‘Sport’ or ‘Manual’ mode then, again, this implicates the LUC.

It costs around £200 to have the torque converter remanufactured (not including the cost of getting the thing out & then back into the vehicle again). The transmission has to be removed but doesn't have to be disassembled.

Phil

Post #77157 22nd Aug 2011 8:15pm
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JonP



Member Since: 11 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 51

2003 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Epsom Green

Thanks Phil what if there's no difference when you engage sports or manual
I tried both today still I get a humming/ resonating same goes if I engage cruise when it's happening
I thought with cruise activated the luc was locked ??
I can even replicate the humming at 70 ish on the motorway

Post #77160 22nd Aug 2011 8:25pm
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RRPhil



Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 908

United Kingdom 

The 56mph ‘rule’ still applies even with the cruise control activated (see measured result below). If the cruise control is activated below 56mph the LUC will be in continuous slip mode (where its application pressure is modulated according to engine torque to maintain a continuous slip speed of around 3%). Above 56mph the LUC will be locked solid.

Click image to enlarge


If you find a clear road and accelerate as gently as possible holding a constant throttle position and you don’t notice any difference to the noise/vibration when you pass through 56mph then I think it’s unlikely to be the torque converter causing the problem.

At 70mph on the motorway the LUC should definitely be locked solid (if you release the throttle a small amount the engine revs should stay constant and not suddenly drop)

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Mr. Green

Post #77182 22nd Aug 2011 9:59pm
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PaulB



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Hampton
Posts: 877

2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Loire Blue

Thanks for your input Phil.

I have a 2005 TD6, so I presume this doesn't apply to me?

The guy that looked at mine insists it's not gearbox related and wants me to have the diff work completed before any further investigation.

Shall I accept this or insist on letting someone else check it out?

Thanks again.

Cheers

Paul

Post #77198 23rd Aug 2011 8:20am
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RRPhil



Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 908

United Kingdom 

Hi Paul,

The GM 5L40-E transmission used in your TD6 does operate on a similar principle to the 5HP24 i.e. the torque converter lock-up clutch has a ‘continuous slip’ mode - as well as ‘on’ or ‘off’ - to allow the lock-up clutch to be activated at lower engine/vehicle speeds for improved fuel efficiency. Unlike the 5-speed ZF unit, however, the GM ‘box does have a torsional vibration damper built in to the LUC :

Click image to enlarge


so possibly you wouldn’t expect a failure of the ‘continuous slip’ system to have quite as severe an effect (in terms of transmitting engine vibration) as it does for the V8. I suppose it’s possible, though, that your TV damper may have failed? Unfortunately I’ve never taken any measurements from a TD6 so I’m afraid I can’t advise what the shift map for the LUC is.

In L322 the 5L40-E is, of course, infamous for wear failures resulting in the solenoid which controls the torque converter LUC :

Click image to enlarge


providing inappropriate pressures which leads to the lining of the LUC wearing away (as can be seen in the top photo) dumping more & more metallic debris into the system and ultimately failing the transmission through valve block issues. The first thing you should always do if you have problems with a 5L40-E, therefore, is to check for metallic debris (‘glitter’) in the fluid. At that point fluid changes may alleviate the symptoms slightly but won’t tackle the root cause (i.e. it’s already too late) and a transmission rebuild/swap is the only solution.

Phil

Admin note: this post has had its images recovered from a money grabbing photo hosting site and reinstated Mr. Green

Post #77202 23rd Aug 2011 9:31am
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stan
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phil are you the famous 'phil' from the rangeroversnet site that rebuilds gearboxs ..

Post #77203 23rd Aug 2011 9:35am
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JonP



Member Since: 11 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 51

2003 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Epsom Green

I think he is Scarey Thumbs Up

Post #77207 23rd Aug 2011 9:59am
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RRPhil



Member Since: 22 Aug 2011
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Posts: 908

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Ermm, yes – but I’m pretty sure that I’m not famous

Post #77215 23rd Aug 2011 11:27am
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stan
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you defo know your stuff mate..welcome ...

Post #77219 23rd Aug 2011 11:51am
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PaulB



Member Since: 17 Jul 2011
Location: Hampton
Posts: 877

2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Loire Blue

Thanks for taking the time to explain Phil.

Post #77257 23rd Aug 2011 3:53pm
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mrd1990



Member Since: 01 Jun 2011
Location: N. Wales
Posts: 267

United Kingdom 2002 Range Rover HSE Td6 Oslo Blue

Finally got out for a long drive around Anglesea and much of north wales the other day and the vibration is still very much there.. after I though I'd fixed it with the tire pressures Crying or Very sad

Will be going back to the stealer next week and hopefully come back fixed, shall pass that info on Phil! many thanks!

Post #77492 24th Aug 2011 8:10pm
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Ajay(UK)



Member Since: 02 Mar 2010
Location: Arundel, W. Sussex
Posts: 608

United Kingdom 2015 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Indus Silver

JonP wrote:
Thanks Phil what if there's no difference when you engage sports or manual
I tried both today still I get a humming/ resonating same goes if I engage cruise when it's happening
I thought with cruise activated the luc was locked ??
I can even replicate the humming at 70 ish on the motorway


Hi Jon, Sorry I've been away and have only just caught up on forum posts Embarassed

The official diff recall was carried out having previously had 2 earlier attempts at solving "diff issues" so it definately wont be that! When I first had the car it appeared to have the symptoms you are referring too and it turned out to be "cupped" Goodyear tyres Confused I switched to Michelin Synchrones and never had the problem again, very smooth and very quiet - I thought there was a reasonable amount of tread left of the "Michy's" but maybe they are now suffering the same fate Rolling Eyes

Andy. 2015 L405 SDV8 Autobiography, Indus Silver with Black Pack.
SWMBO: 22MY Defender 110 HSE X Dynamic, Gondwana Stone.
Gone: 2014 Discovery 4 HSE Luxury Firenze Red
Gone: 2006MY Java Black TD6 Autobiography
Gone: 2013 Jaguar XKR Convertible, Italian Racing Red with Ivory Seats
Gone: 2010MY Stornoway Grey TDV8 Vogue SE with RSE
Gone: 2008 Disco 3 HSE, Hybrid Tv + Retro-fit RSE System & DVD
Gone: 2003 Epsom Green 4.4i Vogue, LPG, Mk4 Nav, BMW Bluetooth Phone, Hybrid Tv Tuner,

Post #78421 31st Aug 2011 8:09am
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Mikeyjd



Member Since: 14 Jun 2011
Location: Wrexham
Posts: 543

Wales 2003 Range Rover SE Td6 Zambezi Silver

Ajay(UK) wrote:
JonP wrote:
Thanks Phil what if there's no difference when you engage sports or manual
I tried both today still I get a humming/ resonating same goes if I engage cruise when it's happening
I thought with cruise activated the luc was locked ??
I can even replicate the humming at 70 ish on the motorway


Hi Jon, Sorry I've been away and have only just caught up on forum posts Embarassed

The official diff recall was carried out having previously had 2 earlier attempts at solving "diff issues" so it definately wont be that! When I first had the car it appeared to have the symptoms you are referring too and it turned out to be "cupped" Goodyear tyres Confused I switched to Michelin Synchrones and never had the problem again, very smooth and very quiet - I thought there was a reasonable amount of tread left of the "Michy's" but maybe they are now suffering the same fate Rolling Eyes

Andy.


"cupped tyres" are often caused by worn shocks. If that is the cause of cupping, fitting new tyres will eventually result in the new tyres getting cupped as well, unless the cause of the original problem is rectified. No longer FF owner but still interested. Present car Jaguar XE
............................................

Previous car Td6 SE
................................

Previous LR- Disco 300TDi Auto

Post #78437 31st Aug 2011 9:58am
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JonP



Member Since: 11 Jul 2011
Location: Surrey
Posts: 51

2003 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Epsom Green

Just an update following fluid and filter change last Friday
The fluid was black and apparently smelt burnt although apart from some sludge in the pan there was no discernible evidence of metal chunks or debris
The filter and fluid were changed and upon test drive no more vibrations or resonating inside the cabin space Bow down
So fingers crossed I have bought myself some more time and I will monitor closely
Hi Andy I will keep my eye on the tyres thanks mate hope you had a great time away

Best regards
Jon

Post #78440 31st Aug 2011 10:11am
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Ajay(UK)



Member Since: 02 Mar 2010
Location: Arundel, W. Sussex
Posts: 608

United Kingdom 2015 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Indus Silver

Mikeyjd wrote:

"cupped tyres" are often caused by worn shocks. If that is the cause of cupping, fitting new tyres will eventually result in the new tyres getting cupped as well, unless the cause of the original problem is rectified.


In this instance I dont believe that to be the case as the cupping was evident on the Goodyears at 30k miles, I then changed to the Michelins and did 40k on that set without any "cupping" - If there was an underlying problem that caused the cupping it would have show itself over that 40k miles or the subsequent 35k.

Andy. 2015 L405 SDV8 Autobiography, Indus Silver with Black Pack.
SWMBO: 22MY Defender 110 HSE X Dynamic, Gondwana Stone.
Gone: 2014 Discovery 4 HSE Luxury Firenze Red
Gone: 2006MY Java Black TD6 Autobiography
Gone: 2013 Jaguar XKR Convertible, Italian Racing Red with Ivory Seats
Gone: 2010MY Stornoway Grey TDV8 Vogue SE with RSE
Gone: 2008 Disco 3 HSE, Hybrid Tv + Retro-fit RSE System & DVD
Gone: 2003 Epsom Green 4.4i Vogue, LPG, Mk4 Nav, BMW Bluetooth Phone, Hybrid Tv Tuner,

Post #78441 31st Aug 2011 10:33am
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