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bozmandb9

Member Since: 06 Dec 2010
Location: Wallingford, Oxfordshire
Posts: 1055

2013 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Causeway Grey

[/quote]

Yes I do deny it. I've been in markets for almost 30years and pretty much every "news report" (on subjects that I completely understand) is pure rubbish. Therefore, I'd give about as much credence to what journalists are saying as I do to the Beano.

OK, don't believe the news reports, just believe the reality? What's happened to the price of crude last couple of months?

[/quote]
Er. You seem to have confused me with an eco-warrior. I am not. I don't have a carbon footprint - more a carbon supertanker-print. My point was that when a billion Chinese and a billion Indians start really consuming as we do, the price of oil now will look like the bargain to end all bargains (ask yourself why China has been steadily buying up strategic commodity supplies). What we need is to ensure that everyone in the world pays the sort of taxes we do here in the UK.

Also, the UK is less than 2% of global oil consumption. Petroleum distillates are a sub-set of that. If UK motorists drop our consumption by 10%, it is the square root of feck all. If I were a speculator in oil (I am not and never have been), I doubt a potential 0.2% drop in demand would scare me when China are building two power stations a week to keep up with the growth in demand for electricity there.[/quote]

Who said it had to be limited to UK? The Americans are far from happy about fuel prices for a start. As for making sure other countries tax petrol as highly as us...

Clearly China and india will increase demand for oil, however we know it's running out, reality is the alternatives are already there, but they won't be introduced until the oil's gone, due to the vested interests concerned - i.e. replace oil with alternative propellant tomorrow - All stock exchanges bomb, pensions destroyed, taxation revenues slashed.

My real point is that whether or not we have a realistic ability to affect these things, apathy is just crap. You may not achieve what you want through protest, but you can guarantee achieving nothing through apathy.

I remember campaigning against UK going into the Euro in '97. Aren't you glad we succeeded in keeping Britain out? Should I have stayed sitting on my a e thinking nothing I can do? If we'd all done that, I guarantee we'd be part of that mess. 2012 SDV8 Vogue SE

13th Jan 2011 8:15pm

stan
Site Moderator

Member Since: 13 Jul 2010
Location: a moderate moderated moderator moderating moderately in moderation
Posts: 35771

simple solution then, nuke the chinese and india....

13th Jan 2011 8:17pm

dan_uk_1984

Member Since: 12 Nov 2008
Location: Bude, Cornwall
Posts: 4014

2006 Range Rover Supercharged 4.2 SC V8 Tonga Green

scarey wrote:
simple solution then, nuke the chinese and india....

Now there's a cause I could get behind!

13th Jan 2011 8:20pm

Royle

Member Since: 12 Nov 2010
Location: Perth
Posts: 655

And I don't disagree with you Dan.

13th Jan 2011 8:30pm

M44K TS

Member Since: 09 Feb 2010
Location: North East U.K.
Posts: 1325

scarey wrote:
simple solution then, nuke the chinese and india....

So where would I get my Friday night takeaway from?

2006 Mercedes CLS
1991 Retro-style Mini
But really finding it hard to fight the urge for a S/C...

13th Jan 2011 10:08pm

letsavit2

Member Since: 16 Oct 2010
Location: essex
Posts: 854

Might link this thread to a greenpeace forum, sure they would have a right laugh..

Range Rover owners moaning about fuel costs.... 2004 black Vogue TD6

13th Jan 2011 10:48pm

bozmandb9

Member Since: 06 Dec 2010
Location: Wallingford, Oxfordshire
Posts: 1055

letsavit2 wrote:
Might link this thread to a greenpeace forum, sure they would have a right laugh..

Range Rover owners moaning about fuel costs....

Too right, but believe it or not my FFRR 4.4 is costing me less in fuel than the car it replaced!

LPG see.

2012 SDV8 Vogue SE

13th Jan 2011 11:02pm

Emperor Mong

Member Since: 07 Jul 2010
Location: London
Posts: 1435

2019 Range Rover Autobiography 2.0 PHEV Loire Blue

bozmandb9 wrote:

OK, don't believe the news reports, just believe the reality? What's happened to the price of crude last couple of months?

Doesn't have to be speculators. We have had an exceptionally cold winter, a key Alaskan pipeline was shut, oil production is down, inventories are depleted. All verifiable facts. Speculators? Maybe. Who knows? If it isn't speculators but real demand for a product, then how will you achieve your goals? It would cause a lot of hardship for no tangible gain.

As for apathy, I fully agree.

However, what are you trying to achieve? Lower petrol prices? Well, of the price that you pay at the pump (say 125p/l), 90p is tax. So we halve the price of oil to $50. Petrol is still going to be over £1/l. Is it the oil price we should be worried about? Or the tax?

Also, is reducing consumption really going to achieve your aims? OPEC is a cartel. They set production to ensure that the oil stays at a price that is attractive for its producing members. If consumption falls, they can cut production (and have done so in the past) to ensure that the supply/demand balance keeps oil prices high. Saudi Arabia knows that they have finite oil. They don't want to sell it for $20 a barrel. They don't mind leaving it in the ground.

Can you really affect people's behaviour to ensure lower consumption? Punitive real taxation aimed (allegedly) at reducing our consumption (green taxes) has not achieved that goal. About 50p/l has been added to the cost of petrol just through taxation over the last 15 years. A real kick in the teeth and it has achieved feck all (including the fuel protests). Will a jolly boycott achieve a change in behaviour that a 50p rise didn't?

Finally, oil is finite. At some stage (not now), it will run out. It is still the most obvious fuel and (before tax) is cheap. If sensible alternatives are to be developed, then the more expensive petrol is, the sooner technology will move on.

Now, you are right that others will not raise taxes. However, if you are a true petrolhead, then perhaps that is where your protest should be aimed. A fuel tax in the US would do more to reduce the cost of oil than any protest here could do, as that would move the vast majority of 'merkins from their thirsty pickups into more efficient cars. It would help preserve the stocks of oil for all rather than being a race to see who can use it all first. The US consumes almost 22% of global oil - 2.25x the next biggest country (China).

Oh and if you think that attacking the tax is the right thing to do, with what do you think the government will replace it? And, given the parlous state of the UK's taxes, replace it they will. Will that be better or worse for everyone?

It isn't a one dimensional problem and there isn't a simple solution. I know that what I believe to be the solution is not something that will be achieved through protest and driving my daughter's Fiesta rather than my Range Rover.

13th Jan 2011 11:06pm

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