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mpirie

Member Since: 26 Jun 2012
Location: In the Highlands
Posts: 897

2013 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Luxor

4.4 TDV8 Starter culprit

Hi guys,

After replacing the starter on my 2012 Westie at the weekend, i thought i'd dig into the old one to see if our suspicions of burnt contacts was right.

Well, here is the evidence:

These are the contacts that would short the battery feed to the motor windings (looking from the inside) during startup.

This is the corresponding view of the solenoid showing the same burnt copper contacts as well as the energiser coil feeds.

This is a close-up of one of the copper studs (the left one from the first pic) showing the level of burning. The ridged pattern visible on the other contact pads has almost completely burnt away.

I'm pretty sure the contacts could be cleaned chemically rather than abrasively and the starter put back together for another few years life.

Mike

1st May 2019 3:11pm

Grofus

Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
Posts: 577

2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Zermatt Silver

Do you think it would be possible to clean the contact up and then add metal by brazing and then filing to size. 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

1st May 2019 3:42pm

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

2011 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Baltic Blue

Mike,
Q E D.
Thanks for the proof that we both suspected all along.

My replacement starter arrived at lunch time so I can start making plans to change it, but I must have started it 20+ times since it failed once last week, so I will give it over the B/H weekend then decide , but I will swap it before it gets unreliable.

Cheers
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

1st May 2019 4:43pm

mpirie

Member Since: 26 Jun 2012
Location: In the Highlands
Posts: 897

Grofus wrote:
Do you think it would be possible to clean the contact up and then add metal by brazing and then filing to size.

I don't think it needs additional copper added to the contacts, just a chemical clean.

The studs themselves are solid, it's just the build up of carbon that was stopping a good contact from happening.

A soak in brake cleaner would probably be enough to remove the carbon.

Mike

PS. I'm no ecomentalist (who could be driving an FF) but considering how much it cost to buy a new starter......all for the sake of removal, dismantling, cleaning and reassembly.

If i'd known it would be such a simple repair, I wouldn't have bought a replacement!

1st May 2019 7:40pm

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

Mike,
I don’t think it is quite that simple.
I asked the auto electrician about stripping it down and cleaning up the contacts, but he wouldn’t consider it once he knew that replacement contacts weren’t available. He “thought it wouldn’t last” was what he said, but didn’t explain why.
Cheers
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

1st May 2019 7:57pm

GraemeS

Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2314

2012 Range Rover Autobiography TDV8 Bournville

The contacts could be mechanically cleaned (filed/ground) but the remaining material thickness will indicate whether the contacts will last long enough to warrant the work. I doubt that brazing would be appropriate as the other metals in brass will have different electrical and physical properties.

Replacement studs may be available using an old one as a sample.

1st May 2019 10:01pm

GraemeS

Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2314

This site http://www.hummerknowledgebase.com/electric/cssc.html provides instructions for cleaning-up contacts, stating that the copper contacts should be cleaned to a shiny condition and suggest that the plate be cleaned with a wire brush, possibly using a dremel.

1st May 2019 10:26pm

Grofus

Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
Posts: 577

Better still, silver plate the contacts and stop the arcing altogether. 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

2nd May 2019 1:42am

mpirie

Member Since: 26 Jun 2012
Location: In the Highlands
Posts: 897

Baltic Blue wrote:
Mike,
I don’t think it is quite that simple.
I asked the auto electrician about stripping it down and cleaning up the contacts, but he wouldn’t consider it once he knew that replacement contacts weren’t available. He “thought it wouldn’t last” was what he said, but didn’t explain why.
Cheers
Mike.

Maybe he was looking at it with "commercial" eyes inasmuch as it would not be worth it for him because of the slim margins to be made?

The difference between him and us is that most of us would do the work for fun since they are our own cars.

Mike

2nd May 2019 9:01am

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

I agree Mike.
All it costs us is time and we don’t have to put a guarantee on our work , so nothing for us to loose.

The plate side looks thick enough to polish up with a bit of fine sandpaper, so just got to hope the contact side has got enough meat left to burnish it up clean.

I will be trying it one rainy day when I feel bored.
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

2nd May 2019 9:48am

Grofus

Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
Posts: 577

The copper stud contact looks easy enough to have manufactured. 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

2nd May 2019 11:13am

GraemeS

Member Since: 07 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2314

Re: 4.4 TDV8 Starter culprit

mpirie wrote:

This is a close-up of one of the copper studs

Mike,
Could you ascertain and advise the stud's shank dia and length please? eg standard M8 x 30mm. The head dia would also be useful.

2nd May 2019 11:18am

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

It’s raining, so....

Click image to enlarge

Exactly like Mike’s, .the plate side is easy to clean and this one wasn’t badly pitted.
The stud side was much worse. One contact is smooth, the other one is ridged ?

I have got a few more pictures but they don’t really add anything.

Their is a number moulded inside the cap .... >PF-GF57<

A new cap with new studs would save us all £200.

Cheers
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

2nd May 2019 1:52pm

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

Total cost of repair....a bit of wire wool

Mike.
PS
Brad this was your starter. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

2nd May 2019 2:20pm

Baltic Blue

Member Since: 13 Aug 2015
Location: North Wales
Posts: 3689

I have just had a Eureka moment...
The plate side of the contacts will turn over, and it’s as good as a new one on the other side.

Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

2nd May 2019 3:37pm

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