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Kot



Member Since: 10 Mar 2021
Location: broadland
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Does anyone know

Where is the UK's EV Lithium battery recycle centre?
What are the cost's, energy and emissions wise, to recycle these large batteries? 2018 SE SDV8 4.4 Byron Blue

Post #656583 14th Feb 2023 1:36pm
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Gremlin500



Member Since: 11 Mar 2022
Location: Newcastle, UK
Posts: 1222

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@Kot:

Good point, and although Bill mentions it above, so many so-called “comparisons” of BEVs and other electric vehicles conveniently forget to add in the massive emissions produced in the generation. Add dirty electricity to dirty battery recycling emissions plus additional tyre/brake particulates, and I seriously doubt EV’s are cleaner than any other method of vehicle propulsion at this time. I’m just not convinced by the dubious comparisons and lack of transparency. “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” -where’s the fun in that?

Post #656586 14th Feb 2023 2:27pm
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Bill



Member Since: 18 Nov 2017
Location: Essex / Normandy
Posts: 1174

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SamThomas wrote:
There are two very different & separate issues here - "particulates" & "gases".

It is possible that a vehicle could take in air heavily contaminated by various particulates & it's exhaust gases contain less particulates. That has no bearing on what other pollutant gases are also part of the exhaust.

The other issue is what gases are contained in the mix of the exhaust


Gas , above my pay grade. EA did cover the subject a while back.

As mentioned before I was surprised the new smell you get in a car is not so good for you.

I used to deal with fish, histamine was monitored closely and improved significantly to a point that it was negligible, through better handling of the fish, However there were a load of other chemical in the same group of “mines’ xmine, ymine zmine, they were never ever tested , nor had any limits.

We only know so much in this debate. I do believe that stopping ICE production will also stop R&D shortly and therefore improvements on all potential improvements from health, to the planet to fuel economy. I assume some manufacturers commitment to all electric may have something to do with complying with euro 7, which surely has to be the last fence before production ceases. Filters are in fact so good that in certain circumstances, when the ambient air is already polluted, a diesel car will tend to extract more particles from the air than it emits. Emissions Analytics worked with........etc etc

He who dies with the most toys wins...

Post #656595 14th Feb 2023 3:14pm
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Ramblin Man



Member Since: 05 Apr 2022
Location: Southsea
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England 2012 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Buckingham Blue

Kot wrote:
Does anyone know

Where is the UK's EV Lithium battery recycle centre?
What are the cost's, energy and emissions wise, to recycle these large batteries?


So, some while ago I asked the same question at work. I had an office colleague at the time whose wife was a “green consultant” they were into EV’s and were trying out a Tesla. At that time ( circa 2019 ) it turned out that EV batteries can’t yet be recycled as when the internal cells are exposed to air/oxygen they catch fire…. and further become very difficult to put out.

In one’s and two’s this is a solvable problem; but if you’re trying to recycle 1000’s of batteries at scale the fire risk is so high it makes the process uneconomic.

Now, the green enthusiasts will respond along the lines of “when an EV battery reaches end of life in a car you simply reuse it as energy storage for solar systems in the home as the charge/demand cycle is different and so the battery can be reused.”

It seems to me that there are two issues with this;
1.) The failure pattern of large Li batteries tends to be at the level of the individual internal cell. Once a few cells have broken down internally the whole unit is comprised. So there’s a need to replaced the damaged internal cells to extend the battery life and then you’re back to the potential fire problem again.

2.) At some point the whole unit will become untenable and then you‘re simply left with a toxic fire risk that is very difficult to recycle.

Quite frankly I was astounded that the EV manufacturers had designed and put into production at scale EV’s without seemingly to have thought through how battery recycling would be viable. It seems to me analogous to the overlooking of the diesel particulate issue by the manufacturers 20 years earlier.

My colleague did say that VW were researching an “inert gas” production line recycling approach although I do not know if it has progressed into production. ( see: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ljJdmsCjFuc&...I39hU9krNU )

If I rembember correctly, in 2019, there was a specialist company in the US that was providing inert gas warehousing facilities to manufacturers for used EV batteries as there was no easy way to store lots of them without a significant fire risk.

I guess the situation may have moved on by now.

There’s mention of a U.K. research project called ReLib here :

https://li-cycle.com/news/amazon-panasonic...e-tsunami/

Personally, I concluded that because of the battery recycling issue EV’s we’re not a viable long term prospect. I prefer to own vehicles rather than lease them. Even so, I would only ever consider leasing an EV so that it would be someone else’s problem at the end of the term. I would never consider buying a second hand EV; if the battery fails you’ve got a many thousands of £ problem on your hands. I don’t even know if you can tell what the battery condition is if you were to buy one second hand.

Net-Net; I bought my self a late 4.4 TDV8 fatty with a low milage and a good history and I plan to be buried in it in around 30 years time ! TDV8 4.4 2012

Post #656660 14th Feb 2023 10:29pm
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Gremlin500



Member Since: 11 Mar 2022
Location: Newcastle, UK
Posts: 1222

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Vogue TDV6 Corris Grey

@Ramblin Man

Great post, thank you.

I have read up on this subject much over the last few years, being interested in battery technology as a result of joining the excellent forum Endless-Sphere.com, and building my own ebike. I just read in the news in the last few days, that in London, house fires caused by ebike batteries have increased 80% in just one year! I cannot confirm the credibility of the figure, but even 20% would be alarming. Most folks don’t understand just how volatile these lithium cells become when they experience thermal runaway, or that they actually produce oxygen as a by-product, which means they can self-perpetuate combustion even in an enclosed space, reaching incredibly high temperatures very quickly and producing large volumes of acrid fumes, even ignoring the pollutants emitted by whatever else they set fire to. I wonder, what are the “products of combustion” and what might be the effects on health & environment of this on a large scale when adoption becomes universal? Does anyone even know, or as usual, are we blindly following the money-driven selfish ambitions of industrialists and politicians alike?
What will happen when there are biliions upon billions of these expiring cells on Earth, with no clean way to dispose of them?
Historically and typically, developing industry favours profit and pollution, and will never clean up its act, only pay lip service to get away with as much as it can, and for as long as possible, in the interests of greed, profit, and power. Just consider the filth industries have left behind long in the past, yet still lying around waiting to be cleaned up by some future, better society. Whistle “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” -where’s the fun in that?

Post #656678 14th Feb 2023 11:28pm
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SamThomas



Member Since: 12 Nov 2021
Location: South East
Posts: 293

United Kingdom 2003 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Baltic Blue

Sometimes, when I look at the big picture I wonder how effective, percentage wise our efforts via ULEZ & so on really are when you add into the mix war, fires, volcanoes & so on.

Maybe, if there was some sort of penalty charge for house fires & the pollution they cause it would level up the playing field a bit ?
Are you ;listening khan ? - of course but there are no votes to be "bought" there are there....

Post #656706 15th Feb 2023 10:26am
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cass



Member Since: 12 Oct 2011
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Good point about looking at the big picture, it's easy to get hung up on what comes out of a car exhaust but it 's irrelevant if you consider that if the whole of the UK got nuked tomorrow and ceased to exist then the reduction of CO2 annually would be slightly less than the amount that China INCREASES every year.

Post #656721 15th Feb 2023 12:35pm
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Bill



Member Since: 18 Nov 2017
Location: Essex / Normandy
Posts: 1174

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Reported today . The Times.

Transport accounts for just 13% of all particles ( wood burners 27%)

Note well , transport means ALL transport eg trains, bus, lorries etc.

IMHO


Stopping all ICE cars by 2030, looks more like a mistake

Yes there is the co2 issue… but it SEEMS finely balanced against EV Filters are in fact so good that in certain circumstances, when the ambient air is already polluted, a diesel car will tend to extract more particles from the air than it emits. Emissions Analytics worked with........etc etc

He who dies with the most toys wins...

Post #656791 15th Feb 2023 7:37pm
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Gremlin500



Member Since: 11 Mar 2022
Location: Newcastle, UK
Posts: 1222

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Vogue TDV6 Corris Grey

@Bill:

Does transport include planes?
Good to know what % of transport planes make up, in that case; e.g. are cars the scapegoat while the rich zoom around the world in private jets pouring out billions of tonnes of pollutants, laughing at us poor commuters getting it in the neck sort of thing…… ☹️ “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” -where’s the fun in that?

Post #656802 15th Feb 2023 8:43pm
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Bill



Member Since: 18 Nov 2017
Location: Essex / Normandy
Posts: 1174

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Emmissions analytics have another press release today, it’s on their web site.

Theoretical Experiment with cars in a confined space and measuring the nasties,

I cut out a part of the article, I can’t copy the tables

I have put in bold the hi-light . 2nd para .

Why are they banning new ICE cars in 2030? I’m just saying things are getting better.

Quote
On the diesel engine :

During this hypothetical experiment, the vehicle would suck in and then emit about 30 m3 of gas – mainly nitrogen – which is equivalent to about 55% of the total laboratory air volume. The colour coding indicates whether the concentration after one hour is below the no-harm level (green), or between the no-harm and immediate danger level (amber). We have also considered whether the process of combustion would use sufficient oxygen from the air to create an asphyxiation risk. Clear to see is that there is no red, which would indicate immediate danger.

The most dangerous pollutant, therefore, is nitrogen dioxide, but the forecast levels are still half of the recommended immediate danger levels, despite the amount of air in the laboratory being relatively small. Even with this worst-case pollutant, if the volume of the laboratory were just 1,438 m3 (about 27 single garages, or the interior volume of an Airbus A380 aircraft), the amount of air would be sufficient to dilute the NO2 to the point of no harm. Put this car in the open air, and you can see why this powertrain is no longer a problem from an urban air quality point of view.

The experiment was then extended to a modern gasoline vehicle: a Renault Clio 1.0 litre 88 bhp front-wheel drive manual vehicle certified to the Euro 6d-TEMP-EVAP emissions standard. The main difference in the outcome is for NO2, which is now at a negligible level, and CO, which is about double the diesel vehicle. Carbon monoxide is rightly feared as highly poisonous gas to humans, and even modern gasoline vehicles emit a significant amount when the engine is cold, but after about two minutes the catalytic converter brings it down to low levels, even in dynamic driving. As this engine is smaller than the diesel one, the total amount of gas ingested and then exhaled in one hour is only around 12 m3, or 22% of the total volume of the laboratory. Filters are in fact so good that in certain circumstances, when the ambient air is already polluted, a diesel car will tend to extract more particles from the air than it emits. Emissions Analytics worked with........etc etc

He who dies with the most toys wins...

Post #667150 20th Jun 2023 8:40pm
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dingg1



Member Since: 29 Jun 2013
Location: PORTUGAL
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2007 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.2 SC V8 Stornoway Grey

Bill

The, article isn't news its dangerous theoretical nonsense at best

Even though they caveat the article with 'don't try this at home' now why do you think they do that?

Then they say c02 is the worst pollutant without taking into account the bloods affinity for c0, anyone running an engine for one hour in an enclosed space (typical sized garage) runs a very high risk of brain damage at the very least as we all know.

Stop with this nonsense, or disregard the caveat and let us know how you get on.

😂

Post #667204 21st Jun 2023 9:19am
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Bill



Member Since: 18 Nov 2017
Location: Essex / Normandy
Posts: 1174

United Kingdom 

Dingg1

The company is well known and advocate of emission control. The article was mildly interesting & light hearted , and I hi lighted the line of interest to me to share.

I just find it fascinating that they hold the newer ICE euro 6 engines in high regard. As for euro 7 standards, they are virtually ( but not ) saying , why stop selling them ?
Tyres and internal plastics are their main worry now.

https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/de...ly-arrived Filters are in fact so good that in certain circumstances, when the ambient air is already polluted, a diesel car will tend to extract more particles from the air than it emits. Emissions Analytics worked with........etc etc

He who dies with the most toys wins...

Post #667218 21st Jun 2023 11:56am
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