Hi all,

I wonder if I could get some help or advice on the troubleshooting of my recently purchased RR Vogue 2011 4.4 Tdv8. I bought it from an auction hoping it would be either an electrical or starter issue. When the car was delivered to me, I very quickly started suspecting that it might be a mechanical engine issue. I removed and tested the starter which turned out fine. However the engine had a pretty severe engine oil sludge build up issue and there was hardly any oil left in the engine. I tried spinning the engine through the crank bolt with a short breaker bar but wasn't able to move it (didn't remove the front bumper or radiators). But then I bought a longer breaker bar with which I ended up spinning it by about 20degrees before running out of travel due to space restriction (it didn't spin easy though). This gave me some hope and I decided to do more investigation before I decide whether I'm going to try and rebuild the engine. In the meantime I also bought the GAS IID diagnostics tool and carried on doing some further research in to what might be the problem.

Here is what I have done so far:

1) I removed the top oil/coolant cooler which had a leak. I replaced both seals incl. the two round seals on the rear turbo oil feeder pipe. I cleaned the lot and reinstalled with new oil filter and refilled with fresh engine oil. None of the new engine oil escaped which ruled out a suspected hole in the engine block.
2) I cleaned all the positive battery terminals including the MEGA fuses behind the battery and also all negative terminals that I could find.
3) I checked all fuses (incl. Starter motor one) and the starter motor relay - no obvious issues
4) as said above, I removed and tested the starter motor which turned out fine, so I reinstalled it back.

Here are issues that I discovered:

1) When I tested (with a volt meter) at the starter motor point the main positive cable which goes from the battery to the starter motor, I had no power there. This lead me believe that the positive battery cable has a fault. Apparently a number of people had this problem (from looking at other posts here). What is strange however is that it seems that from the starter motor, the cable continues to the main engine fuse box (which has the starter motor fuse and relay) and when testing there, the cable is under load. This doesn't seem to make sense to me because the starter motor terminal seems to be in between so if I get no reading there, there should be also no reading at the fuse box. However I tried connecting the starter motor directly with my jump leads from the battery's positive terminal to the SM's main positive terminal and than applied 12v to the SM's solenoid but the starter motor didn't spin the engine (even though it looked like it was trying). Again this seem to point to the seized engine hypothesis.
2) I have read error codes using the GAP IID reader and it keeps returning two codes: B1087-93 LIN bus A - Component failure - no operation & P0A1A-87 (2F) Generator control module - Bus signal/message failure - missing a message ( attached below). I found another post on this forum by a member COOPSS (I already reached out to him directly too) who had exactly the same no start/no crank issue with his 4.4 tdv8, but I don't think he ever responded with a solution.

Click image to enlarge

...when you rotated it 20 degrees, and it stopped, would it go back 20 degrees, and then again, forward 20 deg?

yes, I managed to rotate it back and forth within the range of motion I had to play with (from top)

I wonder if assuming bottom end is free, that the pistons are hydro locked... Ie some fluid in the piston crowns, stopping the engine turning further....water/oil etc... is there a way to turn it, to locked position, and strapping the bar at that position, to see if it will come slightly released, and able to move on a little after a period of time. obviously, if the injectors were out, it would allow turning... but that can invite more problems. can also be a bent valve or two!

Here is what happens when I try to start it. PS: The battery is fully charged despite the warning message

of course, if you were to remove the oil suction cover for draining the engine sump, and with some tube, fitted, blow in... it should be sealed after a blow, and not pouring your 'puff' out of a hole in the block.... I just wonder if you have the typical starter motor wiring issue... AND a hydro locked engine, from the turbo, or water leak/wading calamity. I would be trying with thick cables direct to the starter, from another battery, with ignition on.... to see if it will indeed spin a little... and not crap itself every time you key the button.

No start no crank?

Bob Marley once said no woman no cry
Maybe no 4.4 FULLFAT no cry ?

Rambles wrote:

No start no crank?

Bob Marley once said no woman no cry
Maybe no 4.4 FULLFAT no cry ?

good analogy! FULLFAT's are like women.. Can't bear to be with them, but can't bear to be without them... Also terrible on your wallet

johnboyairey wrote:

of course, if you were to remove the oil suction cover for draining the engine sump, and with some tube, fitted, blow in... it should be sealed after a blow, and not pouring your 'puff' out of a hole in the block.... I just wonder if you have the typical starter motor wiring issue... AND a hydro locked engine, from the turbo, or water leak/wading calamity. I would be trying with thick cables direct to the starter, from another battery, with ignition on.... to see if it will indeed spin a little... and not crap itself every time you key the button.

As the alternator B+ cable is connected to the starter cable at the starter, I suggest that you disconnect the main power cable from the starter motor and use another cable to a battery to try the starter with the alternator disconnected in case the alternator is creating a dead short as they are prone to doing when they fail.

PS. Never turn an engine backwards! Chain tensioners operate in the forward direction and can loosen when turned backwards.

GraemeS wrote:

As the alternator B+ cable is connected to the starter cable at the starter, I suggest that you disconnect the main power cable from the starter motor and use another cable to a battery to try the starter with the alternator disconnected in case the alternator is creating a dead short as they are prone to doing when they fail.

PS. Never turn an engine backwards! Chain tensioners operate in the forward direction and can loosen when turned backwards.

I think I am right , but others may be able to help more, in thinking that if the alternator diodes blow and it then puts a short directly on the battery feed it is possible that it will have blown the Mega fuse. (400 amp )
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

Last edited by Baltic Blue on 19th Apr 2022 2:01pm. Edited 1 time in total

Quote:

I think I am right , but others may be able to help more, in thinking that if the alternator diodes blow and it then puts a short directly on the battery feed it is possible that it will have blown the Mega fuse.
Mike.

I would still do as GraemeS suggests and separate the two cables , then apply 12v directly to the starter motor. to eliminate both the alternator and the starter motor solenoid.
Mike. G reg 2.5VM Vogue Portofino red 1991- 1999
V reg 2.5td P38 Rioja red 1999- 2006
53 reg td6 Vogue Oslo blue 2006- 2015
11 reg 4.4 TdV8 Vogue SE. Baltic blue 2015- date.
https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic56162...tty+affair

The 220A alternator won't blow the 400A fuse. If the engine is running then the battery will be flattened within a couple of minutes but if not running then the short circuit will deprive the starter of adequate current to operate.