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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black
ZF8HP slipping issues

My 4.4 tdv8 L322 has a loose gearbox in the lower gears.

When cold, the engine revs to help warm things up quickly, however my issue is when the gearbox is warm. Above 30 ish mph, and (I assume) 4th onwards the gearbox is fine and changes gear nicely.

It’s those lower gear changes that’s a problem.

Pulling away from stationary when warm, the gearbox revs to about 2,000 rpm annd fluctuates with the gear changes until it hits 4th. The gearbox changes gear (or tries) but never actually goes into gear instead continuing to use the revs like it’s riding the clutch in a manual car.
If driving and I slow down (I.e. to pull into a side road) and the speed drops enough to cause a gear change then it’s the same… all revs and attempted gear changes. If I slow but it doesn’t need to change gear then all is fine.
Whilst “riding the clutch” the revs drop like it’s trying to get into gear, then rise before falling again as it goes into gear.

The gearbox oil has been changed, as well as the cooler and pipes due to a seized solenoid… so it’s possible the gearbox has been cooking (nothing on the dash or logged about this).

Would a bottle of Dr Tranny help with this? Even if just to delay the inevitable?

I’m trying to get a rough idea on what is needed to fix this to cost it all up. If it’s a simple job of dropping the pan, rubber seals and solenoids, then I may consider doing this myself… otherwise if more than that then I’ll find a suitable specialist. Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

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Post #647007 31st Oct 2022 8:30pm
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beeza



Member Since: 20 Oct 2021
Location: Dominican Republic
Posts: 21

England 2010 Range Rover Supercharged 5.0 SC V8 Java Black

I feel your pain. I'm going through a similar problem with my 5.0 SC. I'm away form home at the moment but if I had it at home in my garage I would take off the oil pan and drop the valve block. But my mechanic has suggested a total swap with a second hand tranny. So I've had to bite the bullet and order one off eBay.

What you describe sounds like a leaking bridge seal. Before condemning your transmission I think it would be worth ordering up a set of sleeve seals and the bridge seal and having a go yourself. And whist at it, a set of solenoids. There are some very reasonably priced kits on eBay. Under the ZF label rather than Land Rover which are also on eBay but with extra JLR tax.

I wouldn't consider adding any unapproved additives to the oil. From what I can gather these ZF trannys are very fussy with their oil. 2010 L322 5.0l Supercharged

2008 L322 Vogue 3.6 VDV8 (The wife's)

Post #647034 1st Nov 2022 6:50am
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GraemeS



Member Since: 06 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2278

Australia 2012 Range Rover Autobiography TDV8 Bournville

How does it behave in manual mode? Has it always behaved like this?

The slipping sounds like mine's torque converter slip. Upshifting and mostly lifting off the throttle causes the TC to lock unless too much throttle is used whereupon the TC is slipped again. Mine takes off in 1st then very quickly changes to 2nd, slipping the TC then will change to 3rd and again slip the TC holding revs to around 2000 rpm unless very gentle throttle is used. Turning into side roads I wait several seconds after lifting off the brakes as I've found that the TC will stay locked even down to nearly 800 rpm on light throttle, whereas getting straight onto the accelerator immediately after lifting off the brakes will cause the TC to slip.

These gearboxes can be reprogrammed to lockup the TC much more readily. Whilst the description of the remapping sounds good, I would want to have a drive of one that's been done in case it introduces behaviour that I don't want.

Post #647036 1st Nov 2022 7:17am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

beeza wrote:
What you describe sounds like a leaking bridge seal. Before condemning your transmission I think it would be worth ordering up a set of sleeve seals and the bridge seal and having a go yourself. And whist at it, a set of solenoids. There are some very reasonably priced kits on eBay. Under the ZF label rather than Land Rover which are also on eBay but with extra JLR tax.

Based on my internet reading, this was what I was expecting to need to do next. I want to be sure the TC isn’t faulty before I started anything as that’s something I’d get a specialist to do…
Although, I’m still deciding if even the seals and solenoids is a job I want to tackle on my gravel sloping driveway… Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

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Post #647037 1st Nov 2022 7:51am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

GraemeS wrote:
How does it behave in manual mode? Has it always behaved like this?

I rarely use manual or sport mode, and only when already at speed. However, I have tested manual and the behaviour is the same. It seems to be a problem engaging the gear rather when or which gear.
The behaviour hasn’t always been like this and it’s been getting worse. The gearbox oil change was supposed to help this, which is when we found the faulty cooler solenoid - hence the fear of a cooked gearbox. I’d did help for a bit, but assume the gearbox has adapted to the change.
Oh, and the correct ZF oil was used (apparently)

Quote:
The slipping sounds like mine's torque converter slip. Upshifting and mostly lifting off the throttle causes the TC to lock unless too much throttle is used whereupon the TC is slipped again. Mine takes off in 1st then very quickly changes to 2nd, slipping the TC then will change to 3rd and again slip the TC holding revs to around 2000 rpm unless very gentle throttle is used. Turning into side roads I wait several seconds after lifting off the brakes as I've found that the TC will stay locked even down to nearly 800 rpm on light throttle, whereas getting straight onto the accelerator immediately after lifting off the brakes will cause the TC to slip.


Very similar indeed! Except the quick (attempted) change to 2nd. Mine seems all revs until the speed matches the higher revs and then changes. Although it could be that I simply cannot tell the 1st/2nd gear change attempt.

Fettling the throttle does help and I do that also… but that frustrates me. The car should adapt to me, not the other way around Laughing

Quote:
These gearboxes can be reprogrammed to lockup the TC much more readily. Whilst the description of the remapping sounds good, I would want to have a drive of one that's been done in case it introduces behaviour that I don't want.


My googling has led me down that rabbit hole. Lots of options for BMWs but fewer with RR and many saying it’s not possible. TBH, I’d prefer to avoid this route as I’d be happy with the gearbox behaving normally. IMO with a major power increase then maybe… but not to fix unusual behaviour. [/quote] Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic59478.html

Post #647038 1st Nov 2022 8:04am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

I think my next step is to grab a bottle of ZF fluid and ensure the fluid level is correct.
A common reason given is simply the wrong fluid level… Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic59478.html

Post #647039 1st Nov 2022 8:06am
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GraemeS



Member Since: 06 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2278

Australia 2012 Range Rover Autobiography TDV8 Bournville

You might want to try manual shifting to 1st before taking-off, then using around 1/3 throttle upshift at around 1700 rpm in gears 1 to 3 to get a feel for whether the TC and gear changing is working properly.

A person in Sydney AU works with a business which I suspect is located in the UK to reprogram at least 6-speed and 8-speed ZF gearboxes in Jags and LRs and the Ford version of the ZF 6-speed too. If my upcoming EGR delete + economy remap doesn't significantly improve take-off then I'll seriously consider the gearbox remap down the track as I really don't like the noise from revving at 2000 rpm for the time it takes to keep pace with any other vehicle when taking off from lights.

Post #647041 1st Nov 2022 8:36am
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garyRR



Member Since: 13 Mar 2021
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1286

United Kingdom 

It's rare for a ZF transmission to experience a mechanical fault.

Most 'faults' are due to fluid or seals.

Obvious things are to ensure the fluid and filter have been changed recently, it is correctly filled (cannot be over filled or under filled) also.

Other causes are the valve seals and bridge seal. So, all should be replaced (including the mechatronic seal).

If the box hasn't been fully serviced with all of the above, it's worth getting it done. 2015 Range Rover Autobiography 4.4 SDV8

Post #647043 1st Nov 2022 9:03am
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JayGee



Member Since: 27 Jul 2021
Location: London
Posts: 2570

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Orkney Grey

Worth getting it looked at by a ZF transmission specialist to get a proper diagnosis before speculating what could be wrong and throwing parts at it. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

Post #647044 1st Nov 2022 9:15am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

GraemeS wrote:
You might want to try manual shifting to 1st before taking-off, then using around 1/3 throttle upshift at around 1700 rpm in gears 1 to 3 to get a feel for whether the TC and gear changing is working properly.


What am I looking for when doing this? I expect it to continue to rev as it does now… but will check when she’s back on the road. Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic59478.html

Post #647045 1st Nov 2022 9:39am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

JayGee wrote:
Worth getting it looked at by a ZF transmission specialist to get a proper diagnosis before speculating what could be wrong and throwing parts at it.

Agreed. I’d like to be forearmed before starting this conversation off… however if the responses are “ah it’s THIS. Replace it and all will be fine” then I’m happy to consider doing it.
There will be a phone call with a specialist, even if to get all the information I can. Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic59478.html

Post #647046 1st Nov 2022 9:42am
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Ffrr-lover



Member Since: 04 May 2021
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 632

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.4 V8 Santorini Black

garyRR wrote:
It's rare for a ZF transmission to experience a mechanical fault.

Most 'faults' are due to fluid or seals.

Obvious things are to ensure the fluid and filter have been changed recently, it is correctly filled (cannot be over filled or under filled) also.

Other causes are the valve seals and bridge seal. So, all should be replaced (including the mechatronic seal).

If the box hasn't been fully serviced with all of the above, it's worth getting it done.


Cheers GaryRR. Do you (or anyone) know what the cost is to get this done? both with a specialist or on the driveway? Currently driving: 2012 L322 SE Overfinch 4.4 tdv8

Past rides:
2014 Audi Q7 3.0d (good riddance)
2010 L322 Autobiography 5.0 Supercharged
2011 L320 HSE 3.0 sdv6
2014 Jaguar XF-RS 5.0 supercharged
2007 BMW 535D
2005 Mini Cooper S

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic59478.html

Post #647047 1st Nov 2022 9:44am
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JayGee



Member Since: 27 Jul 2021
Location: London
Posts: 2570

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Orkney Grey

ZF8HP gearbox issues on these cars are very rare. A normal service just involves dropping the oil and replacing the pan / filter and does not include changing internal sleeves. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

Post #647051 1st Nov 2022 10:25am
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cass



Member Since: 12 Oct 2011
Location: northumberland
Posts: 692

United Kingdom 2014 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Causeway Grey

I'd be tempted to go with your idea of checking the level before looking for other problems. It is VERY easy to get the level wrong - I changed my oil, thinking that the car was level, oil temp was correct and I had cycled the gears.
It drove OK, changes weren't as smooth as before which I put down to it adapting to the new oil. This got worse over a couple of days, showing all sorts of random misbehaviour.
Checked my level carefully, my car wasn't level on my hoist when I checked with a spirit level, tweaked this then used the exact gearchange sequence specified by ZF and got more than a litre of extra fluid in.
Everything back to normal.
It's got to be worth a try

Post #647052 1st Nov 2022 10:44am
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GraemeS



Member Since: 06 Mar 2015
Location: Wagga area
Posts: 2278

Australia 2012 Range Rover Autobiography TDV8 Bournville

Ffrr-lover wrote:
What am I looking for when doing this? I expect it to continue to rev as it does now… but will check when she’s back on the road.

You would be looking for positive gear changes without TC slip, just like a manual except that the clutch is automatic. With the right amount of throttle, by around 1700 rpm the torque should have tapered off enough to allow the gearbox to not decide to slip the TC on take-up of the clutches for the next gear.
The change to 3rd will see the revs come back a long way as the gap to 3rd from 2nd is too great on this early version of the 8-speed, so don't apply too much throttle until the TC is locked unless you've taken the revs higher.

This exercise requires that the take-off starts in command/manual mode 1st gear, either drive or sport mode. I always use this method when towing my 2.5T van when taking-off to keep the TC locked.

Post #647055 1st Nov 2022 11:08am
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