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cliff5.0sc



Member Since: 29 Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 136

First happy easter. Second I think you are perhaps the only person to suggest that Land Rover reliability is at a point where it shouldn't be improved. It's one thing to support your brand or your team, its another when that support infringes on your ability to be pragmatic. I like the Washington Redskins but they are a horribly run team. Every other Land Rover forum discusses how their reliability impacts their ability to offroad and overland without support.

I've owned Range Rovers since I was 17. I can honestly say I have no idea what you are talking about, to the point where it is almost unbelievable -- what models have you owned? I am genuinely curious. even the TDV6 had a transmission that had serious issues. I've done countless hours of research, and have tons of actual people who have reported issues to me, many of them saying they actually had to sue Land Rover to get them a resolution. 3 Land Rover master mechanics were interviewed extensively for my book, 1 Land Rover parts manager. When I called to discuss the fact that the timing went on my Land Rover 5.0 SC at 88k miles I was greeted with someone who was rude, his name was Tom.

There were special vehicle campaigns for the L322 when released because of the front differential, a car that was so bad when first released it caused the great Range Rover enthusiast John B, who founded RangeRovers.net to finally give up on Range Rovers.

Every single one of my Range Rovers has had serious issues, the best one made it to 140k miles and that was the old jaguar engines.

1999 RR HSE 4.6 - front differential grenaded at approximately 75k miles, engine tapping, starter blew, altenator blew, relay board fried, water ingress from the sunroof, heat blend motors dead , bushings shot at about 65k miles, all before 88k miles when I sold it,

2006 RR 4.4 AJV8 all electronics dead at approximately 65k miles from water ingress, a known problem which was "rectified" in later years with a water "shedding sheet", this was actually the best one I owned tbh, had an alternator fail at 130k miles, had the engine throw a rod at 140k. There was water ingress from the sunroof, at 50k, complete air spring failure at 130k miles which honestly I don't mind, but overall not what I would consider a reliable car in general but the most reliable Land Rover I have owned. New bushings needed, new endlinks needed at about 65k.

2011 RR Supercharged V8 - Timing chain failure at 86k miles, instructions per land rover are wrong, cam shaft torque needs to be 34 pound feet and not the specified 20 something pound feet. Known problem. New Waterpump at around 50k, torque converter failing. New bushings needed, new endlinks needed.

Sources:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xf-xfr-...ing-52009/
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xk-xkr-...hs-159928/
http://www.jaguarforum.com/showthread.php?t=87440&page=2
http://www.rangerovers.net/repairdetails/d...tdiff.html
http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-r...radio.html
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xf-xfr-...es-143771/
http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-r...ing-2.html
http://www.landroversonly.com/forums/f40/slipped-liner-92050/
https://landroverforums.com/forum/discover...ner-86249/
http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-r...blems.html
http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-r...n-key.html

I think it would be almost a Sisyphus like task to try to state Land Rover makes reliable cars. Fun, beautiful, engaging, surely. Reliable, only you have argued that even my discussions with people at Land Rover, they have told me they don't place reliability high on their engineering chart and that they basically said buy a Toyota if you want a reliable car.

It seems many think Land Rover uses their own engines. I believe they use other companies engines and running gear, from Buick, to BMW, to Jaguar, GM and ZF transmissions and running gear. Using Toyota Engines isn't a bridge too far and could propel Range Rover and Land Rover brand to new heights as they add reliability to their brand perception.

Range Rover is one of the most beautiful and fun cars on the road. I'm ringing a tocsin suggesting they need to improve reliability, I don't think it should be unrung without significant improvement or evidence that the arguments are unwarranted. I think I am actually more supportive than perhaps you are of Land Rover, because empirically if they improve from feedback they will be in a better place in the long run. OffRoadRover.com An American Western Range Rover Off Road Blog

Post #474502 1st Apr 2018 6:23pm
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 1057

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

And the same to you Very Happy Your post deserves a full reply Thumbs Up

I’m on holiday, but will reply properly when I can get to a real computer rather than my phone! 4/10/18:
After 44 days in Sick Bay, the Fatty's back and clocking up the miles again! Thumbs Up

Post #474516 1st Apr 2018 7:59pm
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Paul thornton



Member Since: 23 Sep 2017
Location: Lancashire
Posts: 413

United Kingdom 

It's the big failures that are common faults which get to me ie, TD6 l322's with gearbox failures and the tdv6's with crankshaft failures.

Both these are examples of design flaws which land rover should have rectified but instead just ignored and turned their backs on.

I would have loved to have owned a disco 3 or possibly a 4 but with the ever so common crankshaft failures meaning that at any point you could be looking at a 12k repair bill it's just not justifiable.

I bought a brand new skoda Octavia vrs in 2002. They had a common issue in which the coilpacks failed and caused a slight missfire and unbelievably vw are still replacing them (or were until very recently) under recall and they are only penny's in comparison to what a tdv6 engine or l322 gearbox costs to replace.

Post #474517 1st Apr 2018 8:31pm
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 1057

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

Paul thornton wrote:

I would have loved to have owned a disco 3 or possibly a 4 but with the ever so common crankshaft failures meaning that at any point you could be looking at a 12k repair bill it's just not justifiable.


This is a great example of something that I’ll be coming back to in a minute... 4/10/18:
After 44 days in Sick Bay, the Fatty's back and clocking up the miles again! Thumbs Up

Post #474520 1st Apr 2018 10:14pm
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 1057

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

@cliff5.0sc

An interesting post there Thumbs Up

To give you a little background:

I passed my test in 1981 and after leaving college in 1985, have always had jobs which have meant plenty of driving ever since. A very low year might see it dip to near 30,000 miles, but it's more usually around 35,000 and as high as 45,000 miles in a year. It's hardly lorry or coach driver mileage (!), but it still gives cars a fair test.

I've used cars from Nissan, Vauxhall (GM), Ford, the now defunct Austin (largely a UK thing), Peugeot, Citroen, Volvo and now Land Rover. In all that time the only low points were the Nissan (horribly tinny and lots of very cheap plastic), a dog slow and noisy Peugeot 405 1.9 non-turbo diesel and a disastrously unreliable Citroen C5 2.0 HPi petrol Shocked

My land Rover history is as follows:

2011 - New Freelander 2 (LR2) 2.2 diesel manual. Driven to 90,000 miles in 2 1/2 years. No significant issues, but it was a company car and I had to leave it behind when I moved jobs. Taken on by one of their IT specialists and it's still being run to this day at >165,000 miles. It did have a new rear diff at 100,000 miles and has just had its first new clutch.

2013 - 1 year old Freelander 2 2.2 diesel manual. Bought this myself as the only option at the new company was a new BMW 3 Series Touring Shocked Me? In one of those? I don't think so! Laughing Bought with around 10,000 miles showing and ran to only around 45,000 miles. It only ever had one problem which was a very slight hesitation (like a cough) which happened, very occasionally, under acceleration. Land Rover couldn't fix it, so helped by generously subsidising a change into a top of the range Freelander 2....

2014 - 1 year old Freelander 2 2.2 diesel auto. Bought showing 10,000 miles again. No faults at all. After 12 months, I was just about able to afford my dream Land Rover so, at around 45,000 miles...

2015 - new Discovery 4 (LR4) SDV6. It was everything that I'd hoped it would be. Kept for just 1 year with no faults until I saw the first new Discoveries and panicked! The new car was a complete and utter monstrosity!! my Disco had 35,000 miles on it and I wanted to buy a new one to put off the day when I had to choose between a new Discovery and having to move back to an ordinary car Big Cry Unfortunately, a lot of other people had had the same thought and I couldn't get what I needed for love nor money, so I traded it in for a used top of the range Disco....

2015 1 year old Discovery 4 SDV6, with,10,000 miles showing. Lovely car but, unlike my last one, needed a few very minor niggles sorting which were done quickly under warranty. Unfortunately, after only around 10 months, it showed the yellow engine light of death, which put it into Land Rover hospital for a month Big Cry On the plus side, they did give me either a Range Rover Sport or a proper Discovery 4 as a loaner. They did give it back to me after only two weeks, but it lasted less then half a day before going back. It was eventually diagnosed as a dead high pressure diesel pump and (in a body off exercise), fitted a new pump and injector hoses. That fixed it, but I spoke to LR Customer Services and (very politely) said that I had lost confidence in it. They asked me what my favourite new LR would be and I specced up a new RR V8 AB and they made it "financially viable" for me to upgrade to it Very Happy Very Happy

2017 new Range Rover SDV8 AB. Now 6 months and 17,500 miles old. Problems so far? A couple of minor gremlins in the Infotainment system, that I've managed to work around with familiarity, a minor tailgate realignment and disappointingly useless factory roof rails and cross bars are the only issues so far. There is no car I'd rather have and this is now a keeper. All being well, this will now stay until it is 4 years (and around 140-150,000 miles) before deciding if I keep it long term and into properly high mileage Very Happy

"I think you are perhaps the only person to suggest that Land Rover reliability is at a point where it shouldn't be improved". I don't believe that I said that. I completely agree that keeping objectivity is vital and I'm not blind to their faults (they have faults!) and I enjoyed your analogy with the Redskins Laughing There is always room for improvements in quality control and LR have room for improvement but, in comparison with the other cars that I've owned, they've been amongst the very best (Volvo and Citroen XM's) and head and shoulders better than several Rolling Eyes LR Customer Services are (if I treat them nicely) can be superb. This is my own money that I'm spending and I'm happy with the results.

It's true that, when I see people post to knock LR reliability without having had any direct experience of the problem (or even having owned the car), I can twitch a little and I feel like redressing the balance a little. Take Paul's post as an example. He's not felt confident to buy a D3 or D4 because of problems that he's read about. I can understand that. But how many of those "problems" that he's read about have been problems that other people have also "read about" and our repeating themselves? I've spent a lot of time on Disco3/4 and there are A LOT of people complaining who've no direct experience and A LOT of the "worried well" who are getting needlessly stressed.

Alternatively, there are those people who get completely bent out of shape about the most minor of things. They feel that, because it's a breathtakingly expensive car that it must be perfect. I can understand that, but it's still a complex machine and things can still go wrong and as the first owner, we are the people who give this particular example its first thorough test. It's how LR deal with it that's important and they've been okay so far. Far better than Volvo ever were!

You say that you've collected a lot of data for your book, which is great Thumbs Up However, if someone has findings which don't fit in with the conclusion (and as long as they are being objective), I'd argue that they are every bit as valid as those that do. 4/10/18:
After 44 days in Sick Bay, the Fatty's back and clocking up the miles again! Thumbs Up


Last edited by Red Merle on 3rd Apr 2018 8:03am. Edited 1 time in total

Post #474526 2nd Apr 2018 6:52am
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gonna_go_double_r



Member Since: 26 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1512

United Kingdom 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Stornoway Grey

Red how many LR miles would that total then?
. now: gone_double_r | 2011 Vogue SE 4.4 | Stornaway | Lovin' it

Post #474532 2nd Apr 2018 9:04am
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 1057

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

That’ll be around 247,000 miles by me, with a further 75,000 miles added to my original Freelander 2 by Phil, so around 322,000 between us.

If the RR is running well at the 4 year point, I shall look at either getting another (if I can afford it!), or running it for a further 3-4 years (also, if I can afford it! Laughing ) which might even see it in the 250-300,000 region Shocked 4/10/18:
After 44 days in Sick Bay, the Fatty's back and clocking up the miles again! Thumbs Up

Post #474535 2nd Apr 2018 9:18am
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gonna_go_double_r



Member Since: 26 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1512

United Kingdom 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Stornoway Grey

near as 10 times around earth Red. Thumbs Up
. now: gone_double_r | 2011 Vogue SE 4.4 | Stornaway | Lovin' it

Post #474536 2nd Apr 2018 9:46am
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gonna_go_double_r



Member Since: 26 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1512

United Kingdom 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Stornoway Grey

I don't think we can blame LR for any engine issues, they've used engines from:

Buick V8
BMW Straight 6 3.0
BMW V8 Petrol 4.4
Ford Lion Series: 3.6 TDV8 3.0 TDV6 4.4TDV8
Jaguar V8s: 4.4 Naturally aspirated and supercharged 4.2 / 5.0

Ok the Jag engines are kinda theirs.

Japan in the 60's and 70's raised the bar globally for car reliability. But would we say Japanese engines these days are better? Hasn't everyone raised the bar in response?

But couldn't you counter-argue that the Germans have always had exceptionally engineered engines? Wait there's a few of these in Land Rover vehicles.

There's no doubt Toyota has reliability nailed, We've got the Range Rover and also a Toyota bought new in 2003 and not one thing has broken ever. Only maintenance items have been replaced in the last 15 years.

I carry both keys on my keyring. When I leave the house there's not a blip of hesitation as to which car I want to take. (yes I know we are talking about engine suppliers).

Anyway it's all going batteries and electric motors. Thousands less moving parts which means as we shift to all-electric, reliability will go up.

My point? If you want Toyota reliability, buy a Toyota.
. now: gone_double_r | 2011 Vogue SE 4.4 | Stornaway | Lovin' it

Post #474539 2nd Apr 2018 10:02am
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counter of beans



Member Since: 18 Aug 2017
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 182

England 2012 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Santorini Black

Interesting post Cliff, and I guess we can all trade experiences of reliability with this or that brand. I've no doubt you're right - Toyotas are more reliable than Land Rovers on average.
But even if Toyota was prepared to supply engines to JLR, they probably wouldn't be diesels, which is what most European Range Rovers still use. I appreciate it's different in the USA.
Also, JLR sells as many as they can make, with no effective competition for the FFRR. Proper off-road toughness just doesn't matter to the average FFRR buyer, so a Land Cruiser isn't really a rival. New or nearly new FFRR's are luxury beasts and far too lovely to go anywhere near rocks and deep mud!
So for JLR it's a case of "no need to change" until, of course, hybrids and all-electric cars become the norm. Presumably that changes the game and we'll see what engines JLR use at that point - maybe then you'll see Toyota engines in a Rangie?

Meanwhile, customers like Red Merle seem more than satisfied with the brand, and he's not alone.

Post #474541 2nd Apr 2018 10:25am
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CS



Member Since: 14 Apr 2015
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 743

Scotland 2017 Range Rover Autobiography 5.0 SC V8 Corris Grey

Having spent a lot of money building an engine plant at Castle Bromwich, JLR are highly unlikely to want to buy in engines from elsewhere. They might expand the Ingenium range to include 6s and maybe a 4.0 V8 petrol or diesel (I believe 4.0 is a significant size limit in China), and they will have to do what legislators demand as regards emissions, so hybrid/electric. will be important too. Dr Ralf Speth has an interview in the Telegraph today about future plans (not read as is restricted access online).

Just on engine experience, my own is as follows:

3.5 carburettor Classic: no problems 97,000 to 107,000 miles, but went out of tune quite quickly after servicing, averaged maybe 12mpg.

3.9 Efi Classic: no problems up to 79,000 miles/9 1/2 years. Once older would go out of tune reasonably soon, maybe 18mpg.

These were lightly stressed simple pushrod V8s that seemed to last very well.

4.6 Vogue P38: no problems up to 30,000 miles/3 yrs. Maybe 19mpg. JLR were starting to push the boundaries of the old Buick design, and while I had no engine problems, I am aware of issues due to the bores being too thin. Perhaps I was lucky in having it for its best years and not too long. Standing behind an idling P38 on a warm day one could readily believe they contributed to global warming.

4.4 L322 BMW engine: After 97,000 miles and 9 1/2 years told engine knackered and to get rid, it was still running OK but spraying coolant out the back. 20mpg using super unleaded.

4.4TDV8 L322: No engine problems 57,500 miles/5 1/2 years. There was a turbo weep, but no smoke. About 30mpg on super diesel.

5.0SC L405: too early to say.

The 322s were much more problematic than any of the other cars. The petrol 4.4 in particular tested my brand loyalty. But as far as I am concerned the main problems are with components other than engines (and in the case of the Classics and the later 322, corrosion). I did try Toyota LCs (150 and 200) and asked LR Assist technicians for views. One said "They are not as nice to drive" and that was my experience too. Another said that there were problems with cheaper components e.g. wheel bearings on Hilux, on more recent cars. Toyota seem unusual in buying into the lower emissions wishes of legislators and sacrificing performance to do so, e.g. 2.8 LC150 as against 3.0 LC150, and removal of LC200 from UK market, maybe not the current JLR philosophy.

As someone else on here has said the problem at JLR is perhaps them trying to meet ever more stringent emissions requirements, that force the engines to live outside their comfort zone. There is also the point that what manufacturers in general want is to keep selling new cars, ideally on finance (the dealer incentives there are a problem waiting to happen) so there is little interest in building cars that last > 100,000 miles, nor is there any from politicians, who want new cars with lower emissions and the tax revenues and jobs that go with new cars being sold, not higher emission older cars going on and on.

Toyota seem to be leaders in petrol/electric hybrid and maybe JLR could do a deal with them for expertise in that area, in the way I recall reading BMW have done. Toyota will no doubt also keep doing well with solid engines in areas with less demanding emissions rules. Anyone sufficiently impressed with Toyota can invest in their ADRs (symbol TM) and put any dividends and profits towards running their RRs... of course capital is at risk and the price of ADRs can fall as well as rise and there is no guarantee of dividends... Only Range Rovers since 1988

Post #474553 2nd Apr 2018 1:45pm
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
Posts: 1057

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

gonna_go_double_r wrote:

But couldn't you counter-argue that the Germans have always had exceptionally engineered engines?




It happened to a friend with a 4 year old 520d M Sport and a repair just wasn't viable. BMW abandoned him.

He wound up shifting it as a non runner here:

http://www.sellyourproblemcar.com/mechanic...nightmare/ 4/10/18:
After 44 days in Sick Bay, the Fatty's back and clocking up the miles again! Thumbs Up

Post #474596 2nd Apr 2018 9:31pm
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gonna_go_double_r



Member Since: 26 Nov 2016
Location: London
Posts: 1512

United Kingdom 2011 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Stornoway Grey

Precisely Red. Every manufacturer, Toyota, BMW, Land Rover, Ford GM, have problems.

Google Toyota recalls and this comes up:




. now: gone_double_r | 2011 Vogue SE 4.4 | Stornaway | Lovin' it

Post #474600 2nd Apr 2018 9:53pm
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