ive been off the radar for a while. but echo the comments on dropping your LOWER sump. its very easy, you need to drain your oil. (you might refill it back!) and remove i think three 17 mm? bolts, to remove the sump guard plate. then, about 15x 10mm? bolts, and with a slight lever/screwdriver, pull it off. if your lucky you wont tear the gasket, but if you have one handy, all good. so, with a mess/drip tray handy, you can drop it straight down, and see if you have any nylon chunks. its about 20 mins, and you are better informed. if you want to chat, PM me. have you perused any BMW 5/7 series forums? they might recommend an indy/backstreet guy that could be of use. some are good you know! at least if local, you can chat. and it gives you a chance of solving it.
engine stays in! keeps th work down. i only removed the rad, and ancilleries. like alternator, water pump,

...and all this lpg myth. maybe its his premises' insurance, so, even if diconnected, he might still not work on it.

Right, we'll just got a quote in from the only mech in bristol who seems to now what he is doing - £2920 Inc vat (£1500 labour at 19 hours + parts (I am getting the valley pan gasket changed as well.)

He is insistent that the engine comes out "as it makes it easier for me to work on it". When I expressed my concern at taking everything off a 12 year old engine, he got quite stroppy and told me in no uncertain terms that his 35 years experience as a mech with 16 on LR makes him more of an expert than me. "But it's your car so if that's what you want to do..." interesting customer concern handling technique!

Anyhow gonna bite the bullet and let him have a go. He's got a good reputation so Here's hoping!

This might not help given where you are, though I know 3 places in the South Manchester area that would probably do the job: Town & Country Land Rovers (Sandbach) who I know have done timing guides on an LPG 4.4, Land Ranger Services (Middlewich) and I know someone who had it done on a 4.4 that had LPG at a place in Marple I think (could find out if required). I can't believe any of these places would charge more than £1500.

I know some places will look at LPG with horror, though there's no real extra work on an LPG car as I don't think any of the LPG stuff needs to come off to do this job. And while there are comments that LPG runs hotter, it's only about 1-degree so makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I suspect at the mileage on your car, the guides have just reached the end of their lives and failed.

If it is the guides that have gone, it tends to sound very rattly at the front - which is presumably the chain bouncing off the cover and what is left of the guides. True way to find out (as others have said) is to drop the sump and check for pieces of black plastic. Even if you just drop the oil, there are usually small enough pieces that will come out of the drain plug. I wouldn't drive it if they have gone.

The job is tricky to do, but not impossible. A good guide can be found here www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/876903

The other alternative is to put a whole engine in - they can be found on eBay for about £1700, though there would be cost on top for installation. I know I can't advertise here, though I could put my hand on an engine if you needed it. PM me if interested or I can put it on the for sale section. Current:
- 2013 L405 4.4 TDV8 Vogue
Sold:
- 2004 L322 4.4 Vogue (BRC LPG)
- 2002 L322 4.4 HSE (having fixed timing chain guides)
- 2000 P38 4.6 Vogue (BRC LPG)
- 1981 2-door In-Vogue
- 1980 Ex-Army SIII LWB
- 1976 SIII LWB
- 1968 SIIA
Stripped for parts:
- 2003 L322 4.4 Vogue

it would be interesting to know, how he undoes the cranknut. you kind of need engine locked, and bolted into the car, to undo it! maybe he has a jig he holds the engine in. but surely it will roll all over the place. might be just an extra thought to check both the rear crank oil seal, and hidden water gasket plate. and be aware he doesnt need to take out the torque converter, it stays in the bellhousing, but is very potentially 'loose'.
so if its not leaking now, and it susequently does, that you pointed it out before etc. (gearbox front seal. )
are you getting the vanos cogs re-sealed too?

as said in previous posts by others and me, its an engine (stays) in job, its rad out, water pump, fan and belt off, alternator off, rocker covers off, upper chain covers off, crank wheel off, cranknut undone, lower timing cover off, and there you are. ready to change all. the whole chain is exposed. lower sump off, to check all particles have fallen down. and then, lock camshafts with toolkit, removed tensioner, then guides, and chain.

'replacement is the reversal of the dismantling proceedure.'

new rubber gaskets at all points, with ends sealed with RTV

vanos cogs, resealed, mini chain guides changed too, (optional) vanos solenoid return valves and rear vanos solenoid gaskets changed... as precaution, but optional.

i wouldnt pay more than £1500 for the job. £500 parts, maybe tool kit on top....the garage still gets £1000, and thats all cash, and probably only an overseas mechanic doing the job. i know your like your car, but i think its overkill.

to do the valley pan, its a £30 part, and with engine still in, drain water... its just rocker covers off, ignition cables unplugged, folded back, lpg injector rail unplugged folded back, injector plug rails yanked off...inlet manifold bolts removed carefully. and mani lifted upwards, making sure nothing like leaves or nuts drop into open heads, and plugged with toweling immediately, then, unbolt valley, scrub clean engine face, and fit new. and then replace. thats about 2-3 hrs at most. especially as we are talking experienced mech's, not book reading scaredy-cats, like us.

Absolutely. Engine stays in.

Rad out and do it from there. If you really need more room then lights, grille, bonnet slam panel and other rads out and you have pretty good access to the front of the engine. Much quicker than taking the whole engine out. Current:
- 2013 L405 4.4 TDV8 Vogue
Sold:
- 2004 L322 4.4 Vogue (BRC LPG)
- 2002 L322 4.4 HSE (having fixed timing chain guides)
- 2000 P38 4.6 Vogue (BRC LPG)
- 1981 2-door In-Vogue
- 1980 Ex-Army SIII LWB
- 1976 SIII LWB
- 1968 SIIA
Stripped for parts:
- 2003 L322 4.4 Vogue

Thanks for all your comment and advice everyone. Thanks Zeb for your kind offer job but it's a bit too far away and happy to stick with this engine as it's been perfect so far.

Well I am just going to have to suck it up as haven't the time or expertise to do it myself. The upside is that I should have a perfect running car up to 200,000 miles as there is a 20,000 mile "warranty" supposedly.

I have no doubts as to the guy's competence - I am sure he knows what he is doing but we will see. He also reacted with pique because I rang another garage (my lpg guy) to see if he could recommend anyone. He actually recommended this guy but obviously called him up to say I had rung. All huffy because I said it was coming to him, despite the fact that he hadn't supplied me with a cost until this morning and when I asked for him to email a breakdown off the costs into labour, parts and the actual jobs to be done to it, "sorry haven't got time, one man down and very busy under cars" - when I rang later to confirm the car being dropped off to him today, I asked the receptionist if she would have time to email it only to get a call from the boss man saying it would take an hour to do a full breakdown and anyway he wouldn't know until he had seen the car. Funny way to do business.

Would it be a good opportunity to get the torque converter changed at the same time?

my reference to the torque converter, was just, that, if its badly disturbed, (they can fall out, when engine is out of car...it could start leaking on the gearbox front seal. after replacement. if it isnt at the moment, just point this out, in case it does after. its only a fiver for one, and its easy to fit standing where the engine was. likewise a torque converter, but you dont want to be extending this bill north, so leave it.

still dont get the engine out method. even if your back is bad, getting it out is same problem.

engine in method, needs no ramp time. so less pressure to complete. i understand you wanting a breakdown, and puzzled as to 'needing to see it first' theres nothing to see! if he starts it... thats taking a big step!

admittedly, my job took a few days, as i had to keep going back to order parts, as i progressed the job., and it was outside and icy as hell. i was also cleaning and tidying the engine too. (like rocker covers etc)

i just looked on youtube, this was the first one i clicked on.... see the engine apart, and in car. this clip wasnt around, when i did mine. in fact i couldnt find any! there are many other clips. just to show your engine type, with its 'guts on show' .
note some engines 'before' sound worse than this.


also started watching this one.... but he doesnt show undoing the cranknut!

interesting!

I didn't remove the engine or the rad and had loads of room and i would imagine if he is taking it out he will crack the Jesus bolt before removing and tighten after replacing the engine using the locking tool.
there is nothing i found difficult , but i did have a 5 ft breaker bar, there are a lot of parts to remove and a lot of opportunities to feck it up but nothing mind bending.

you can see how much room there is from these pics and i only got underneath a couple of times to lock the TDC and replace the lower sump as i helicoiled the drain plug from a previous owners over enthusiasm.

Click image to enlarge

Dolphinboy...i think ive worked out why the mechanic wants to take the engine out...

we know, ( on this thread..) that the BMW engine, (timing chain repair) can be repaired with engine, still in situ, and we see pictures of it all apart etc. but i believe that the tdv8 (and maybe the later petrol Jag engine?) has its timing chain, at the REAR of the engine, so it NEEDS to come out, and only THEN, can you assess the work. maybe the mechanic is mistaking this job, with yours. and the price reflects this. so, it might be worth discussing it with him.
sounds funny, that he brow-beats you, when you are trying to get into his way of thinking. but here is something to put to him/(her).. (for sexism pedantics)

good luck...

Dolphinboy has the BMW 4.4 v8 petrol engine though which doesn't need to come out - my bad, didn't read the last bit of your post

Well, after having had my car for nearly a week, the garage finally got started and put her up on a ramp, took the front of the engine off and guess what ?. ... the middle chain guide has shattered.

They managed to do this without taking out the engine (despite protestations that it was the best way to do it!)

They want to know whether I want the Vanos Changed as well as "there is a 50/50% chance of knocking if not. It won't do any damage but may knock."

here are the costs for this:

Parts- £1040.17

Fluids and consumables £202.24

Labour- £1710

Total- £2952.41

Vanos units- £992.93

The costs are based on landrover parts and all prices include vat.

The parts include-

Chain, Tensioner, Guides x3, Camshaft chains, Camshaft sprockets,
Camshaft tensioner guides, Aux belts and any seals/gaskets that have
been removed or disturbed.

Vanos units are another - £992.93

Thoughts?

Was going to get the Valley Pan gasket replaced but am being told there isn't one in these engines, is it completely sealed to the outside elements?

Is that correct? I understood there was

Dolphinboy, if your engine sounded fine up till the chain guide going for dump, then you dont need to change the vanos units. if you had some bad clacking noise, at idling, when cold and still audible when hot, then maybe the vanos SEALS need to be changed. (letting by, as hardened) its a bit fiddly, but the parts and special tool, is £120, and you just need the online guide to hooking them out, and re-inserting. then the strength part, where you have to use a tool, (in kit) to squash the units a bit, (via guide) and then they are good to go again. its quicker but far MORE expensive to just put another set on. but with seals worn, they dont stop working, they just are lazier, and noisier. so, youtube for m62 vanos noise, and rest assured, that you wernt worried before, and your happy to save £900. if you need these done at a later date, its a similar job, to set engine, and remove top half of the covers, but not lower cover, and take them off. chain stays in, but is loosened.

as for the valleypan, you can get the part on ebay, for about £40 and it just bolts straight on. after tidying the face on the engine, with a blade. (ports plugged with paper towel) and scrub up top area. old valleypan, had a rubber gasket, its now leaking...junk that, and new part has an (improved) applied and set-hard bead of sealant. dont try and reseal the old one, as your sealant with fail, (like i did!) just get the part and bolt it on. search on here for some posts i did with the part number etc.

edit. part number LCW00010

similar job, but dont use the rtv, replace it. &t=12s

thread i commented on doing mine. http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic33408-45.html

i'm 2000 miles all good on my replaced valleypan, and doesnt use a drop, (after a few settles/top-ups/bleeds, car doesnt use any coolant) i chose but its not necessary to put new orange inlet manifold seals, X4 to seal the inlet to engine. they go a bit hard too. they are about £10 each i think.
just in case its on your bill.

I agree on the vanos, if you were happy before then save £900, they only get noisy and cause start up rattle at worst.
This is my valley pan, they might mean there isnt a gasket available as there isn't, you buy the whole pan and the sealant is applied ready to be just bolted in place and i think this is because of problems applying the sealant and then it leaking.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-FEBI-BILSTEI...rmvSB=true

Now you see me