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DaveK



Member Since: 18 Oct 2013
Location: StHelens
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United Kingdom 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Cairns Blue
Motor Insurance...the compulsory rip off

Lets face it, there would be people who wouldnt pay if it where a £100 a year but putting these a side, I wonder how muchof a part the insidious Insurance Premium Tax has played in these figures ? To have some thing that is compulsory by law then to introduce a tax on it is wrong in my opinion.

Post #502382 22nd Jan 2019 11:25am
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SausageCreature



Member Since: 19 Nov 2017
Location: Leicestershire Rockies
Posts: 169

United Kingdom 2007 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Java Black

Channel Four desptaches exposed the insurance scam and calculated that the UK motor industry was ripping the British public off to the tune of £200,000,000 a year through "authorised dealers" and the inflated prices they use when doing insurance deals.
Chartwells in Derby tried to charge my insurer £580 for reading the faults from memory.
They also quoted my insurer £5000 to repair my rear bumper. But I traded the car in and the didnt need the work doing because the garage that bought it polished out the damage in less than 1 minute.

The Office of Fair Trading submitted a report to the Competition Commission some time ago on the UK Motor Insurance Industry claiming it was an “entirely dysfunctional” industry mainly because of the extreme levels of corruption and dishonesty in how they conduct themselves. The Competition Commission was due to publish its findings this year. They said it was a "criminal industry". Unfortunately for the public, the OFT was closed as part of austerity measures, and the CMA who should have picked up the report were just "too busy" to do anything with the findings, and so it got lost in the process.

Disgusting industry. As are the banks. At least the bankers keep ending up in court and prison.

Post #511934 13th Apr 2019 12:39pm
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SausageCreature



Member Since: 19 Nov 2017
Location: Leicestershire Rockies
Posts: 169

United Kingdom 2007 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Java Black

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/the-ca...ng-racket/

Post #511937 13th Apr 2019 12:48pm
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Red Merle



Member Since: 19 Sep 2016
Location: Liskeard
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United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Aintree Green

Oh yes, I’ve has those calls telling me that I’m entitled to compensation money, that it’s already been put aside for me and that these are the symptoms that I need to look out for and if I haven’t felt them yet, I probably will - in just a few days, when they will be phoning me back.

How many must be tempted? But they are being tempted into committing insurance fraud? Shocked Many could very easily be tempted into a very dark place Sad 2011 FL2 TD4 XS Kosrae Green
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2013 FL2 SD4 HSE Lux Firenze Red
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& 2013 Tiger 1200

Post #511990 13th Apr 2019 11:17pm
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gj88



Member Since: 10 Sep 2018
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 166

United Kingdom 2004 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Zambezi Silver

What a load of rubbish.

I agree, IPT is a pain in the arse, but Insurers don't like it either.

Examples above of how Insurance is dodgy seem to just suggest that some garages take the mick, which we all knew already. Why anyone would think that it's in an insurers interest to let a garage charge them more than your yearly premium for basic diagnostics, so the only person in the process making a loss is the insurer is beyond me.

Not a clue where you've been Sausagecreature, but the Competition Commission report was produced about 5 years ago, didn't call the industry any of the things you've said, and passed the findings to the CMA. The CMA produced a report which said the only real issues were in relation to calculation and visibility of no claims discount, and stopped the industry offering discounts to certain online comparison sites. These orders came into force in 2015/16 and haven't been an issue.

Also linking a rubbish article because the author has a bee in his bonnet isn't evidence of anything.

Completely agree with your points Merle, but I'd say that those calls aren't driven by the industry, and insurers have put an awful lot of money into trying to stop them, they cost us a fortune, there are whole teams dedicated to stamping them out.

I get that not everybody has had great service from certain insurers, but as someone who's entire job is governance of insurance, everything above is either not decided by Insurers (IPT, cold-callers etc) or utter bo***cks.

Post #512028 14th Apr 2019 11:54am
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Andy S



Member Since: 16 Jun 2013
Location: Sevenoaks
Posts: 366

United Kingdom 2015 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Aintree Green

IPT was a tax introduced to maintain tax revenues when other taxes were reduced/removed. Air Passenger Duty is the same. From HM Treasury’s point of view its a no brainer; a tax on ‘discretionary’ purchase ( in their minds, you don’t have to have a car.....) so easy to identify and collect - like VAT you even get someone else to collect it. If you want to blame someone then look to the dishonest politicians. Yes the rate of income tax has been reduced, but for Mr or Mrs Average, the overall tax take has gone up with all these weasel taxes on consumption. For those of us who through hard work and enterprise have managed to make a few quid, its even worse.

As for the price of insurance, well I’ve just renewed with NFU Mutual. £684 fully comp max NCD and business use for a fatty kept on the street in an affluent town in SE. All the on line quotes were MUCH higher, LR insurance quoted double!

Post #512060 14th Apr 2019 3:22pm
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Grofus



Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
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Ireland 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Zermatt Silver

Banks are the problem. Pretty much all insurance companies are underwritten by banks even if not directly. Banking is legalized fraud.
Bills of exchange act, promissary notes and other negotiable instuments along with fractional reserve banking equals fraud.
Rest assured if you or I tried to do business the way banks do, we'd be in pokey. 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

Post #518527 14th Jun 2019 10:26pm
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MPx



Member Since: 29 Jul 2011
Location: South Somerset
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gj88 wrote:
What a load of rubbish.

.... as someone who's entire job is governance of insurance, everything above is either not decided by Insurers (IPT, cold-callers etc) or utter bo***cks.


Well as a life long punter from the outside, I'd suggest you've got your eyes closed if you're in Insurance governance and cant see anything wrong!

Why do we have to have renewal premiums increase every year regardless of other factors which can miraculously disappear if you make a fuss or come back to the same place as a new customer instead of a renewal?
How is it that premiums increase once a claim is made despite having protected no claims by roughly as much as you would have lost if you hadn't bothered to pay for protected no claims?
How is it that premiums are calculated and accepted on the customers stated opinion of the value of the item whereas for any claim made the industry "market" value is suddenly paramount and at a level that would not provide a like for like replacement?
Why is it that all the advertising is about "peace of mind" and "hassle free claims" and the reality is loss adjusters, interviews where you're made to feel like a fraudster, delays, multiple different levels of brokers, agents and handlers and then when its finally all behind you the endless cold calls for years more?

From my position there's nothing good about it. So much so that I've stopped using any of the "premium" players like Hiscox and now just find the minimum cover allowed at the cheapest price. When something goes wrong I expect nothing and I'm generally not disappointed - in contrast to when I paid a fortune in premiums and had absolutely shocking treatment when disaster struck. Mike - MPx

2012 5.0 V8 Supercharged Autoboigraphy Orkney Grey (2017-...)
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Post #518530 14th Jun 2019 11:26pm
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Gsxr1250dave



Member Since: 20 Oct 2018
Location: London
Posts: 116

England 

Wifes had a no fault claim its added £75 quid to her renewal max protected ncd as well tossers

Post #518532 14th Jun 2019 11:55pm
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gj88



Member Since: 10 Sep 2018
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 166

United Kingdom 2004 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Zambezi Silver

1- For the same reason as every other industry, Sky, energy etc. Insurers literally write to you every year, tell you your price and tell you that you'll likely get a better deal elsewhere. No company is obliged to offer their services at the price you want to pay, if you don't like it, move.

2- It protects your level of discount, not your price, that's why its discount protection and not a price guarantee. It seems you can't read a policy

3- What's your genius solution to this problem? Either every car is inspected before going on cover to ascertain a value, or insurers just pay whatever pie in the sky figure a customer comes up with at the point of claim? Or, we leave the completely reasonable current process in place

4- From an insurer who pays over 99% of all claims, and deals with approaching 40% of claims in their entirety on the first call, it's not an experience I've seen. No idea why you'd think brokers would be an insurers fault, we don't like or want them either. If you're annoyed by brokers, don't place your business through a broker. Also, cold calls are nothing to do with us.

It really feels like you're quite angry about about a bad experience you've had and now you're randomly complaining on the internet.

Because you don't understand quite basic insurance principles such as NCDs or simple pricing, or who Brokers work for, it's most likely that your issues arise by not having the foggiest idea what your policy says. The attention to detail of moaning on a months old dead thread probably backs that up Thumbs Up

Post #518533 14th Jun 2019 11:55pm
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Grofus



Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
Posts: 531

Ireland 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Zermatt Silver

Further to that, why is it a car needs to be insured when its clearly the driver. If the car was insured then why do you have name drivers on the policy. Does the car earn no claims bonus, no! If it is the car thats insured then why does it cost more for new driver compared to an experienced one. I can only drive one car at a time yet I have to insure each one separately. The evidence suggests its the driver that is insured and not the car. Why is it done this way. Money. Its a scam and the banks are yet again at the heart of it. 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

Post #518534 14th Jun 2019 11:59pm
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gj88



Member Since: 10 Sep 2018
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 166

United Kingdom 2004 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Zambezi Silver

Don't disagree with some of that Grofus, but again, it's a mandatory class of insurance, almost all foundational points regarding how it works is set by governmental policy, not insurers. Maybe I get too frustrated with these threads sometimes, but I guess it's like most industries, most people have only a rudimentary understanding (why would you need more) and don't appreciate there's an awful lot of stuff we don't decide

Post #518535 15th Jun 2019 12:04am
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Grofus



Member Since: 24 Mar 2017
Location: Co Clare
Posts: 531

Ireland 2007 Range Rover Vogue TDV8 Zermatt Silver

The problem is the government were advised by insurance company executives on how best to implement mandatory car insurance.
One of the main points of contract law is full disclosure. Another is equal consideration. Two points insurance companies fall well short on.
There are much fairer ways to cover drivers liabilities but its not nearly as profitable. Its a bit like asking banks to self regulate then wondering how we got dropped in the sh!te. Again!
There isnt a politician alive that is prepared to take them on so they get away with it. Its not right 2007 Vogue TDV8 in Zermatt Silver with Charcoal

Post #518536 15th Jun 2019 12:26am
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gj88



Member Since: 10 Sep 2018
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 166

United Kingdom 2004 Range Rover Vogue Td6 Zambezi Silver

Well on most of that I don't agree, but it feels like a thread to let die.... for the second time!

Post #518550 15th Jun 2019 10:08am
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MPx



Member Since: 29 Jul 2011
Location: South Somerset
Posts: 188

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Autobiography 5.0 SC V8 Orkney Grey

gj88 wrote:

It really feels like you're quite angry about about a bad experience you've had and now you're randomly complaining on the internet.

Because you don't understand quite basic insurance principles such as NCDs or simple pricing, or who Brokers work for, it's most likely that your issues arise by not having the foggiest idea what your policy says. The attention to detail of moaning on a months old dead thread probably backs that up Thumbs Up


So I'm an angry, thicky, who cant/doesn't read and has no idea what I'm talking about - I already know that - I voted for Brexit and have been told that ever since by remainers. But just in case, despite your greater insight, you didn't get the subtleties of my points....

1 So you think its "normal" and good business practice to try it on with pricing in various ways but only react if caught out. No need to provide a service at a fair price - at a reasonable profit....the value of loyalty being negative. I would never choose to do business with people with that ethos if not forced.

2 Protected no claims is only justified by the industry using your (correct) definition after an inflated renewal is offered. At the point of selling it is marketed in a way that suggests that it will protect premiums should the worst happen. As you say it doesn't, so the industry marketing is a straight forward con. It does not say pay us another 5% for protected no claims and it will make no difference to your premiums rising after a claim.

3 It would not be hard to do your market value at purchase time - its a simple look up of a single number and lots of WBAC type people are ready to provide it. If I say my car is worth £20k and your market says its worth £15k then you should tell me before you take my money that for my premium I am insuring goods to the value of £15k not leave me thinking its £20k. The premium should be based on the value that is at risk not some random number, be that inflated by the proposer or made up later by the insurer when its too late for the proposer to move the business. Full disclosure should work both ways, but is entirely skewed in favour of the insurer.

4 Brokers are part of the insurance industry - fact. If I want to ensure my groundcare equipment I see little alternative to going through a broker. I have not seen any direct advertising for such insurance. I am currently claiming for a written off tractor and am suffering the usual hassle. The insurer is Axa - they don't want to talk to me. They appoint CoPart to do the recovery (nightmare company - took over a week to turn up to remove the wreckage and maintained no consistent story for more than a day at a time), they would not use my preferred groundcare equipment supplier, they then appointed Hoopers engineers to do the assessment - reasonable guy but pitiful valuation, then its all gone quiet again. If I could deal direct with the insurers I would but that doesn't appear to be an option. If I could get them to send me a replacement 1500 hour 35HP 16speed tractor then I'd happily take it but I haven't seen anything close for anything like the without prejudice valuation of £5100 so the chances of me being put back into the same position I was before the accident (the stated claim of the insurers' service) is close to zero. I am lucky enough to have not had too many claims over my lifetime but they have all been traumatic and never the smooth process you describe. 3x House Burglaries (different addresses); 1 subsidence claim; 1 stolen Chipper; 1 car broken into - damage and nicked ICE; and 2x no fault car accidents. The only one close to your description was the chipper claim which started pretty confrontational but was settled properly and fairly once the loss adjuster came to site.

So yes you could argue that I'm "angry" at the insurance industry. But I'd say disgusted by it and contemptuous of it would be more accurate. And I am not "randomly complaining on the internet" I am posting my experience in a thread about the insurance industry - I think you'll find that's how fora work. I see threads by doing a "New Posts" search every time I pass through and reacted following a post put up an hour before mine.

I obviously have very limited knowledge about insurance in comparison to you, but I did think I had a handle on the basics - apparently not. Nevertheless my life experience on the receiving end is just as valid as your unsubstantiated claims as an industry insider. If you seriously believe you are part of an ethical industry that does no wrong then I'd suggest you have your nose far too deep in the trough to see it for what it is. Mike - MPx

2012 5.0 V8 Supercharged Autoboigraphy Orkney Grey (2017-...)
2007 4.2 V8 Supercharged Vogue SE Tonga Green (2012-2017)
2002 4.4 V8 Vogue Bonnatti Grey (2008-2012)

Post #518561 15th Jun 2019 11:47am
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