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caymanblack



Member Since: 08 Dec 2015
Location: DEVON
Posts: 1060

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Carpathian Grey

nicedayforit wrote:
^^
I accept what you say but as someone who has lightly greased wheel nuts/ bolts for the last 40 odd years without issue l think you worry too much. Never used a torque wrench on wheel nuts, l simply tighten them by feel using a 600mm breaker bar.
Have you ever tried removing a landrover wheel at the roadside on a dark, cold wet night when the wheel nuts have been on for a couple of years having been put on dry, it’s well nigh impossible.


I will admit i do exaclty the same as this, never had a problem. overfinch modified

Post #682069 7th Jan 2024 4:00pm
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knwatkins



Member Since: 11 Sep 2020
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 735

United Kingdom 2014 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Corris Grey

Just because someone has always done something a particular way, doesn't mean it's right.

Engineers spend much time doing calculations for a reason. Do it right. Kev

2014 L405 RR Vogue SE 4.4 SDV8 in Corris Grey
2010 L320 RRS HSE 3.0 TDV6 in Stornoway Grey

Post #682072 7th Jan 2024 4:49pm
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AndyRoo



Member Since: 06 Dec 2023
Location: Gloucester
Posts: 387

Scotland 2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Fuji White

I agree.

Engineers calculate the rotational friction of a fully torqued nut based on it's "dry" frictional qualities and also consider the rotation of the wheel to prevent "rotational tightening and loosening", i.e. on heavy duty vehicles the nuts on the right and left sides of the vehicle are "handed" accordingly.

If you add any kind of lubricant to the threads or the mating surfaces you are reducing that rotational friction considerably which means that the original calculations for the nut to remain locked on the thread, and thus the wheel on the vehicle are compromised.

The best thing to do is to back them off every service or quarterly and then retorque them in the correct sequence, also do it when it's neither too hot nor too cold as metals expand and contract at different rates, so if you torqued your nuts in the height of summer, in winter the chances are they'll be significantly looser.

Any decent garage that puts the nuts on with an impact wrench will always back them off and retorque them in stages up to the correct final level and not just rely on the impact driver which will most likely over torque the bolt.

If you know one of your wheel bolts has been over torqued considerably, i.e. you need a long lever bar and standing on it to release it, you really should replace that nut & bolt pair as that stressing could have stretched, twisted or in extreme cases stress cracked the bolt or the nut. Using heat to remove a wheel nut that siezed severly compromises the strength of the metal and once released should be discarded and not reused.

You wouldn't do it on a cylinder head so why would you chance it on a wheel nut ?

Similarly, if you change the nut / bolt material as many do for alloy wheels, i.e. stainless steel vs. tool steel then the torque settings would be under calculated as stainless steel has a lower coefficient of friction that tool steel.

While we're talking, make sure there is no paint on the wheel nut / bolt mating surfaces as that will cause nuts to undo themselves as the paint compresses,.i.e. if you have your wheels refurbished, you need to ensure they've had the nut / bolt mating surfaces machined to ensure a true metal to metal mating before you fit them.

Anyone who tells you different doesn't know what they're talking about and as mentioned by others, just because you've been doing it for years doesn't make it right.

If you really have to know how it's calculated, then here's a good place to start: https://www.hextechnology.com/articles/bolt-k-factor/

Cheers

Andy Fuji White 2012 4.4 TDV8 Westmiinster

Post #682085 7th Jan 2024 6:16pm
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JayGee



Member Since: 27 Jul 2021
Location: London
Posts: 2751

United Kingdom 2012 Range Rover Vogue 4.4 V8 Orkney Grey

It’s also surprising how little actual physical force it takes to apply 140Nm with a torque wrench. Way less than would normally feel ‘right’ on a thread that size and that’s with a lever length on a torque wrench less than most breaker bars. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

Post #682100 7th Jan 2024 9:34pm
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Gremlin500



Member Since: 11 Mar 2022
Location: Newcastle, UK
Posts: 1222

United Kingdom 2017 Range Rover Vogue TDV6 Corris Grey

Very Happy

Aaaaaah, thank goodness! Looks like good sense (and engineering) is prevailing! Twisted Evil

Bow down Bow down Bow down

Let us not follow the Sheep Sheep Sheep Censored Whistle “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” -where’s the fun in that?

Post #682114 7th Jan 2024 11:49pm
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TJH1985



Member Since: 11 Feb 2015
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 663

United Kingdom 2007 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Java Black

Shocked

Torque wrench, not sure why you wouldn't given the implications!

I have a 18v Dewalt impact, very useful when I owned a Defender, but you have to be so careful with them! Mr. Green Sold - Bell a 2015 MY16 Loire Blue Autobiography 4.4 SDV8
Previously George a 2007 MY07 Java Black VSE 3.6 TDV8
Previously a 04 MY04 Defender 90 Sad

Post #682150 8th Jan 2024 4:27pm
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Bill



Member Since: 18 Nov 2017
Location: Essex / Normandy
Posts: 1174

United Kingdom 

AndyRoo wrote:
I agree.

Engineers calculate the rotational friction of a fully torqued nut based on it's "dry" frictional qualities and also consider the rotation of the wheel to prevent "rotational tightening and loosening", i.e. on heavy duty vehicles the nuts on the right and left sides of the vehicle are "handed" accordingly.

If you add any kind of lubricant to the threads or the mating surfaces you are reducing that rotational friction considerably which means that the original calculations for the nut to remain locked on the thread, and thus the wheel on the vehicle are compromised.
Snip snip snip snip
. Using heat to remove a wheel nut that siezed severly compromises the strength of the metal and once released should be discarded and not reused.

You wouldn't do it on a cylinder head so why would you chance it on a wheel nut ?

Similarly, if you change the nut / bolt material as many do for alloy wheels, i.e. stainless steel vs. tool steel then the torque settings would be under calculated as stainless steel has a lower coefficient of friction that tool steel.
Snip snip snip
Anyone who tells you different doesn't know what they're talking about and as mentioned by others, just because you've been doing it for years doesn't make it right.

If you really have to know how it's calculated, then here's a good place to start: https://www.hextechnology.com/articles/bolt-k-factor/

Cheers

Andy


I must say, despite the likelihood of my buying anything called a torque do me good, never mind using one. That’s ALL absolutely fascinating. Thanks. Filters are in fact so good that in certain circumstances, when the ambient air is already polluted, a diesel car will tend to extract more particles from the air than it emits. Emissions Analytics worked with........etc etc

He who dies with the most toys wins...

Post #682185 8th Jan 2024 8:15pm
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Dixy



Member Since: 09 Apr 2009
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1075

2016 Range Rover Vogue SDV8 Loire Blue

Interesting how reducing friction is given so much weight when avoiding additional friction caused by corrosion is overlooked.
I think this is the eternal balance between theory and practice or the real world and the laboratory. letters not necessarily in the right order

Post #682213 9th Jan 2024 8:57am
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AndyRoo



Member Since: 06 Dec 2023
Location: Gloucester
Posts: 387

Scotland 2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Fuji White

Hi,

Your right, the values are all based on the initial application in the factory, i.e. initial torque on new materials.

There's a whole nightmare science on the "lifetime" of the fixing, aging, corrosion, stretch, shock etc.. It even goes down to the level of did you put the same nut on the bolt as you've previously used, did you fit it the same way around or did you mix them up, spin them around and so on ?

Then you get into really anal stuff like oil based lubricants in oxygen rich environments and on, and on, and on, fell asleep long ago.

Enough to say, check your nuts regularly and adjust as necessary, pun is intended Rolling with laughter

Andy Fuji White 2012 4.4 TDV8 Westmiinster

Post #682216 9th Jan 2024 10:31am
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Fla



Member Since: 26 Nov 2023
Location: South west
Posts: 165

Ireland 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Zambezi Silver

I wont get into the debate on whether to use an impact gun or not but for me I have 3 or 4 depending on the torque required and the space available. I use all Milwaukee as I am on that platform for years and one of my favourite recent purchases was the 90 degree right angle impact wrench. Ideal for getting into the tighter spots.

If you are not already on a platform I'd highly recommend this brand as they have a huge amount of Automotive tools and they are only a bit more than Ryobi. Saying that some of the tools look very similar being the same company overall TTI. Current yokes
2012 4.4 TDV8 Westminster
2006 Disco 3
Scoobie GT wagon
Mx5 G Ltd
TT S Line
Pajero JDM Exceed

Post #682222 9th Jan 2024 12:02pm
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AndyRoo



Member Since: 06 Dec 2023
Location: Gloucester
Posts: 387

Scotland 2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Fuji White

Hi,

I've got a DeWalt DCF885 that I've had for ages it's rated at about 155Nm. It's coped with most things except stubborn ball joints, and it's compact so get's into most places.

I've a mind to get something with a little more poke for difficult jobs, which on a Range Rover is pretty much everything, Milwaukee seem to be the brand of choice for the Youtube mechanics, but what model I've no idea. M12 M18 seems good but so many models to choose from and so expensive.

Any recommendations for a good semi-pro tool at a reasonable price ?

Andy Fuji White 2012 4.4 TDV8 Westmiinster

Post #682228 9th Jan 2024 12:51pm
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Fla



Member Since: 26 Nov 2023
Location: South west
Posts: 165

Ireland 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Zambezi Silver

Hi Andy

With Milwaukee you just need to decide whether M12 or M18 will do to start. Eventually you will have both as the M12 is perfect for their ratchets and small impacts which wont break bolts and get into tight spaces but then when you need the power the M18 is needed.

I started with an M18 kit and then had 2 batteries that would fit other bare tools as I needed. I then did the same with the M12. As for expensive, they are cheap in the UK compared to here. Our prices are ridiculous and not as many suppliers. That said I have a lot of it and Ive not trouble with any of it.

As for recommendations, Ill link to a few on a random site whcih I have purchased and used.

This is the right angle M12. There is a fair bit of power in it and its small and light
https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/milwauk...-622x.html

After you purchase the above the following impact and the below non impact would work with the same batteries

impact
https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/milwauk...f12-0.html

non impact long reach
https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/milwaukee-m12fhir38lr-0.html


The M18 line up is similar in the fact that you can get stubby or right angle but the other main difference is the high torque and mid torque. The link below is for Mid torque which does most of what I need, I rarely need to pull out the high torque.

https://www.tradecounterdirect.com/milwauk...g-kit.html


So in summary, decide on battery format, pick a kit with batteries, then shop around for the best deal on that and you have started your journey. If like me after 6 years you have spent way too much you can sit in your shed with pride and admire your collection! Current yokes
2012 4.4 TDV8 Westminster
2006 Disco 3
Scoobie GT wagon
Mx5 G Ltd
TT S Line
Pajero JDM Exceed

Post #682229 9th Jan 2024 1:14pm
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AndyRoo



Member Since: 06 Dec 2023
Location: Gloucester
Posts: 387

Scotland 2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Fuji White

Hi Fla,

Many thanks for that much appreciated.

I'll do some pondering and see if I can offset the expected verbal battery about how many tools I actually need against a nice Valentine's Day present for her indoors.

Andy Fuji White 2012 4.4 TDV8 Westmiinster

Post #682235 9th Jan 2024 1:30pm
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Fla



Member Since: 26 Nov 2023
Location: South west
Posts: 165

Ireland 2012 Range Rover Westminster 4.4 V8 Zambezi Silver

haha Andy, see in my house buying new tools actually counts towards gifts for her as I get to fix the Rover and she gets to steal it on icy days for work so I guess thats a win win, that said I advise all people to stop buying gifts for valentines!

Also, can you really have too many tools???? Im actually in the process of pondering a bigger workshop to fit more in, Very Happy Current yokes
2012 4.4 TDV8 Westminster
2006 Disco 3
Scoobie GT wagon
Mx5 G Ltd
TT S Line
Pajero JDM Exceed

Post #682236 9th Jan 2024 1:35pm
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knwatkins



Member Since: 11 Sep 2020
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 735

United Kingdom 2014 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Corris Grey

I have a Makita DTW300Z. It's a great little impact wrench, brushless motor and a small form factor so you can get into tight spaces with it. Fastening torque is 330Nm and nut busting torque is 580Nm. Kev

2014 L405 RR Vogue SE 4.4 SDV8 in Corris Grey
2010 L320 RRS HSE 3.0 TDV6 in Stornoway Grey

Post #682260 9th Jan 2024 5:26pm
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