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RRover



Member Since: 17 May 2021
Location: Sussex
Posts: 110

2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Causeway Grey

Alistair wrote:
Wow - it continues to amaze me the length some people go to to defend crap tyres Shocked

Why bother with a FFRR ? Surely cars are just a commodity.

A full back to back test of all tyres on all cars is clearly impossible. However, there are tyres that perform consistently well and others that perform consistently badly and many others in between. I've taken the time to read and watch many reviews and it is always the 'premium' brands that come out top and always the cheaper ones that prefer worse. Sure, the middle of the field can be mixed and no one tyre usually sweeps the board & performs best in every condition, but the themes are consistent.

I run different summer & winter tyres - the difference is very noticeable No amateur pundit can ever really know - as you just can't perform an objective back to back test in identical conditions - but try watching some of the Tyre Reviews videos on You Tube to see the lengths they go to.

Most tyres are fine 90%+ of the time - the difference is very much art the margins - but you only need that 10m reduction in braking distance once and if can be the difference between life & death.....


You see there it goes again: "If you don't buy expensive tyres you could be causing death!" That's almost virtue-signalling to sponsor expensive tyres. Most accidents - more so these days - are caused by peeps under the influence of one thing or the other, or because they can't put their phones down when driving. The statistics for peeps driving that shouldn't be driving are also soaring up...
So give at least the top end budget tyres (just tyres that are not vastly over-priced) a break, that's all.
You tyre snobs!!! Laughing

Post #595606 28th May 2021 9:21am
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LT



Member Since: 13 Mar 2017
Location: South West
Posts: 270

2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Carpathian Grey

Interesting correlation between safety and snobbery. Smile

Post #595611 28th May 2021 9:46am
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LT



Member Since: 13 Mar 2017
Location: South West
Posts: 270

2017 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Carpathian Grey

dexion7 wrote:
LT wrote:
Not relevant to Range Rovers, but see how budget tyres fair against more expensive brands in the 2021 Auto Bild 19 inch Summer Tyre Test:
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2021-A...e-Test.htm

Thumbs Up



its just another load of bolllocks sponsored by the well known and grossly-inflated-hi cost manufactures. Rolling Eyes

the requirements to stop quickly in the dry and stop quickly in the wet, place almost diametrically opposed requirements on the tyre design. apart from the balance the manufacturer strikes for that consideration the differences between tyres and brands are tiny. Tyres are a commodity.

if anyone has any evidence to show otherwise (apart from silly reviews), please post it up.

Ur20v – could you tell us how you determined that “ the common tyres that ‘work’ are Michelin, Goodyear, Continental, Pirelli as ‘first tier’ then Falken, Bridgestone and Toyo then the rest follow”
Whatever you mean by the term “first tier” is uncertain but you seem to have grouped the most expensive brands there?


AFAIK the Auto Bild tyre tests are not sponsored by tyre manufacturers. I am happy to be proved wrong though.

Post #595612 28th May 2021 9:49am
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Martin2



Member Since: 15 Jun 2020
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 377

England 

Just stay away from Leaxani for your own safety! 50% longer to stop in the wet than the PS4 SUV! Shocked

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2020-S...e-Test.htm

It's not about buying the most expensive tyres, as there are expensive tyres that aren't great, it's about buying the best tyres for the conditions you drive in and the type of car. In the UK, that's having a tyre with short wet stopping distances and good aquaplaning performance! MY19 SDV8 Autobiography

Post #595613 28th May 2021 10:11am
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Alistair



Member Since: 11 Feb 2011
Location: Peterborough / Bordeaux / Andorra
Posts: 7213

United Kingdom 2013 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Santorini Black

RRover wrote:
You see there it goes again: "If you don't buy expensive tyres you could be causing death!" That's almost virtue-signalling to sponsor expensive tyres. Most accidents - more so these days - are caused by peeps under the influence of one thing or the other, or because they can't put their phones down when driving. The statistics for peeps driving that shouldn't be driving are also soaring up...
So give at least the top end budget tyres (just tyres that are not vastly over-priced) a break, that's all.
You tyre snobs!!! Laughing


Entirely missing the point.

Just own the decision to compromise - don't pretend all tyres are equal. The definition of 'top end budget' is an interesting one, as is 'vastly over priced' - not sure how big a difference matters, but when rolled into the cost per mile of a FFRR it would be interesting.

I'm fine with people telling me they are economising and living with the compromise, but not those who try to delude themselves and others that there is no difference.

You're not causing death, but neither are you doing everything you can to prevent it. Sure phones, drink, drugs etc etc may all be greater problems, but that's not the point of this thread.....

Post #595615 28th May 2021 10:19am
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MonkeyMan



Member Since: 20 Apr 2021
Location: Ascot
Posts: 94

United Kingdom 2013 Range Rover Autobiography SDV8 Causeway Grey

People under the influence, using phones, distracted, etc. Yes, they cause accidents. With my good tyres I am better equipped to avoid those accidents. Isn't that the whole point?

Post #595616 28th May 2021 10:34am
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RRover



Member Since: 17 May 2021
Location: Sussex
Posts: 110

2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Causeway Grey

Alistair wrote:
RRover wrote:
You see there it goes again: "If you don't buy expensive tyres you could be causing death!" That's almost virtue-signalling to sponsor expensive tyres. Most accidents - more so these days - are caused by peeps under the influence of one thing or the other, or because they can't put their phones down when driving. The statistics for peeps driving that shouldn't be driving are also soaring up...
So give at least the top end budget tyres (just tyres that are not vastly over-priced) a break, that's all.
You tyre snobs!!! Laughing


Entirely missing the point.

Just own the decision to compromise - don't pretend all tyres are equal. The definition of 'top end budget' is an interesting one, as is 'vastly over priced' - not sure how big a difference matters, but when rolled into the cost per mile of a FFRR it would be interesting.

I'm fine with people telling me they are economising and living with the compromise, but not those who try to delude themselves and others that there is no difference.

But we can't prove, either, that good budget tyres cause deaths... Neutral

You're not causing death, but neither are you doing everything you can to prevent it. Sure phones, drink, drugs etc etc may all be greater problems, but that's not the point of this thread.....

Post #595620 28th May 2021 11:02am
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Martin2



Member Since: 15 Jun 2020
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 377

England 

Ignoring whether or not the most expensive tyres are best or the if the reviews are biased......which you may think makes it hard to choose, but I think there are enough tests/reviews out there with very similar results to give you enough information to make a properly informed choice..... Why would you skimp on safety so save a few quid?

Let's say a set of tyres will last 30k miles and you've got 22" wheels, going for a budget brand would save you around £100 a tyre, so £400 which isn't a small amount of money but is only a fraction over 1p per mile which is nothing compared to fuel/road tax/depreciation/maintenance etc.

My eldest will be getting his first car in the next few months and if it doesn't have a set of matching decent (not necessarily expensive!) tyres on, then changing them is the first thing I'll do. Probably for a very good set of AS tyres (eg Goodyear Vector or Conti All Season) as that will give him the best all year round option. MY19 SDV8 Autobiography

Post #595621 28th May 2021 11:10am
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RRover



Member Since: 17 May 2021
Location: Sussex
Posts: 110

2012 Range Rover Westminster TDV8 Causeway Grey

MonkeyMan wrote:
People under the influence, using phones, distracted, etc. Yes, they cause accidents. With my good tyres I am better equipped to avoid those accidents. Isn't that the whole point?


Good driving practises will ALWAYS cause fewer road deaths: whatever tyres you're running - sponsored or not. Another equation that we 'could' bring into the argument also is the utter disgraceful condition of our UK roads... I've had to avoid several 9-12-inch pot-holes just about where the passenger side wheels/tyres would be over the past winter period alone... But more money goes into making the 'newly arrived' comfy and safe in five star hotels with all the perks than will ever be spent on OUR roads. And think of the road tax we have to pay for owning and using a TDV8 for instance, even though many are quite well equipped with numerous environmental friendly (don't get me on that one either) gadgets and gizmos to boot.

Those continentals on that ebay ad above look rather nice, I have to admit. OK priced too! Wink

Post #595623 28th May 2021 11:14am
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dexion7



Member Since: 06 Jun 2013
Location: Tynemouth
Posts: 286

2010 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Alaska White

Alistair wrote:
Wow - it continues to amaze me the length some people go to to defend crap tyres Shocked

Why bother with a FFRR ? Surely cars are just a commodity.

A full back to back test of all tyres on all cars is clearly impossible. However, there are tyres that perform consistently well and others that perform consistently badly and many others in between. I've taken the time to read and watch many reviews and it is always the 'premium' brands that come out top and always the cheaper ones that prefer worse. Sure, the middle of the field can be mixed and no one tyre usually sweeps the board & performs best in every condition, but the themes are consistent.

I run different summer & winter tyres - the difference is very noticeable No amateur pundit can ever really know - as you just can't perform an objective back to back test in identical conditions - but try watching some of the Tyre Reviews videos on You Tube to see the lengths they go to.

Most tyres are fine 90%+ of the time - the difference is very much art the margins - but you only need that 10m reduction in braking distance once and if can be the difference between life & death.....


I’m assuming that is aimed at me so here goes.

Your comment “Wow - it continues to amaze me the length some people go to to defend crap tyres” is curious because I’ve not defended crap tyres anywhere. In fact, I’ve not defended any tyres but simply questioned the logic of buying expensive ‘premium’ tyres without any reliable evidence that they are any better than cheaper brands. Its another classic example of the straw-man argument which seems to be the only argument folk can make for expensive tyres.



*** No-one in this thread has defended crap tyres [please read that a couple of times] ***

If a back-to-back test can not be performed on a specific vehicle (RR in our case) then statistics are largely meaningless.

If you change tyres for winter / summer, then you may generally be ahead of the pack who are using the same tyre all year round which are necessarily compromised everywhere but particularly in terms of wet / dry grip levels and the compound – ask F1 teams. And it’s also perfectly possible that a vehicle fitted with summer / winter tyres from a less well-known brand would perform better than 1 tyre type used all year around from a ‘premium’ brand. It’s almost certainly the case that a vehicle used only on dry roads would be better off with cheap, soft compound tyres than expensive all-year round tyres, with the proviso that they would likely wear out quicker.

Just about every review of anything is sponsored one way or another and it’s amusing that in 2021 some folks put so much faith in them. Since the dawn of the printing press, restaurants have hired food critics to give good reviews and so it is today with the internet. Restaurants, taxi companies, hotels, a new printer for your PC, or search for “best [anything]” and you will get a hit list of ‘the 10 best’. And so, it with tyres. Who do you think is paying to run these reviews?

Expensive suppliers of any product typically require sophisticated marketing techniques to maintain their market position and margins. One way that tyre manufacturers do this is to be involved with reviews by ‘respected’ mainstream outfits and those who pay, get the best rankings……….

Publisher contacts the marketing department of ‘premium’ manufacturers and asks “would you like to market your tyres with us? We’re selling advertising space and IP addresses of tyre enthusiasts. It will cost $5,000. If you wish, you can also send us 2 sets of tyres and we will include them in our forthcoming tyre review.”

Publisher sticks a few cheap brands in there at the bottom for each category and the marketing message is that “ALL cheap brands – even the ones we haven’t tested -are crap”. Encourage discussion of the review on forums and wait for some of those who have bought the expensive tyres to trot out the same old straw-man argument again and again “only buy the best, it’s your only contact with the road”.

Inevitably, there will also be someone who had fitted a cheap set of tyres and then crashed. That’s handy because they can protect their driving-god status by referring to the tyres using such terms such as ‘ditch finders’. It also means those who bought the expensive tyres can claim ALL cheap brands crap. The forum and those who bought expensive tyres have now become a marketing tool for the ‘premium’ brands. Its cheap marketing for expensive tyres.

It doesn’t even need all brands to cough up, just enough of them to pay for the promotion. However, if I were marketing director of a ‘premium’ tyre manufacturer and my marketing manager declined to participate I’d want a good explanation. Guess who gets highest rankings?

The review linked to above includes 4 brands that I’d not heard of and since they are listed at the bottom in most categories you seem to believe that this proves ALL cheaper brands perform worse than ALL expensive brands – that is clearly nonsense.

If anyone has actual real-world experience of brand X v brand Y on a fatty then please post it up.

In your last paragraph you state “the difference is very much at the margins - but you only need that 10m reduction in braking distance once and if can be the difference between life & death.....”

Everyone agrees on that – you’re stating the obvious. What is the point of that sentence? Is it the straw-man creeping in again to suggest “buy expensive and don’t take risks with cheaper brands" 2010 VSE [Roger]

Post #595624 28th May 2021 11:28am
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dexion7



Member Since: 06 Jun 2013
Location: Tynemouth
Posts: 286

2010 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Alaska White

Martin2 wrote:
Ignoring whether or not the most expensive tyres are best or the if the reviews are biased......which you may think makes it hard to choose, but I think there are enough tests/reviews out there with very similar results to give you enough information to make a properly informed choice..... Why would you skimp on safety so save a few quid?

Let's say a set of tyres will last 30k miles and you've got 22" wheels, going for a budget brand would save you around £100 a tyre, so £400 which isn't a small amount of money but is only a fraction over 1p per mile which is nothing compared to fuel/road tax/depreciation/maintenance etc.

My eldest will be getting his first car in the next few months and if it doesn't have a set of matching decent (not necessarily expensive!) tyres on, then changing them is the first thing I'll do. Probably for a very good set of AS tyres (eg Goodyear Vector or Conti All Season) as that will give him the best all year round option.


you seem to be saying you do believe reviews results generally and thus wish to buy expensive brands then you wonder why anyone would skimp, then you say you're going to use all-season tyres. if you were not going to skimp wouldn't you be better off changing to different tyres for the winter / summer? or fit soft compound for both seasons with reduced try life? 2010 VSE [Roger]

Post #595626 28th May 2021 11:39am
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dexion7



Member Since: 06 Jun 2013
Location: Tynemouth
Posts: 286

2010 Range Rover Vogue SE TDV8 Alaska White

its endless... Very Happy

"why would you skimp on safety with cheap tyres"

please explain why you think cheap tyres have less safety

please explain why you consider that ALL cheap brands are lacking safety?

are all cheap brands the same?

still waiting for someone to provide any reliable evidence that expensive tyres are 'better' 2010 VSE [Roger]

Post #595628 28th May 2021 11:46am
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Alistair



Member Since: 11 Feb 2011
Location: Peterborough / Bordeaux / Andorra
Posts: 7213

United Kingdom 2013 Range Rover Vogue SE SDV8 Santorini Black

My comments are aimed at no-one in particular - and I'm guilty of blurring with comments made on other threads & forums - so apologies for that - I haven't re-read all the comments on this specific thread which was recently resurrected Embarassed

We might even be in broad agreement but expressing it differently Laughing

There are better & worse tyres depending on the type of vehicle, where, when, how you drive it etc. There is no universally best or worst tyre - you pretty much have to make your own compromise.

There are data points you can refer to - for me that is mostly reviews - but if you don't trust those, then you're really buying blind. I agree that reviews are not perfect, but what else can you do ?

As someone said earlier, for most of the UK, I'd be focussing on damp road performance as that seems to be the prevailing condition. The dry stopping distances are not nearly as widespread as the wet stopping, so I worry less about those.

There are tyres that are optimised for dry performance - you can buy those - they are often cheaper - and people buy them without thinking. Most ditch finder references seem to refer to everything being OK until it rained.

I try to play safe - the OE tyre that came with the car - I've therefore used them for years, they seems very capable & the reviews which include them rate then reasonably well in all categories, so I've just replaced with the same. I spend my winters in a ski resort though - so need a focussed tyre - there is only one 22 winter recommended by JLR - it does well in the tests - so I run those.

If you don't trust manufacturer recommendations or 'independent' tests, then I'm not sure what you do or how you can develop any confidence in your choice.

Maybe there is a cheap tyre out there that would sweep the board in a test & it's just the main stream media mafia & big brand marketing budgets that are preventing sheep like me being able to learn of it's existence.

Shades of grey though - the market has many brands that overlap each other in terms of quality particularly when all the other variables are factored in. You clearly can't change tyres on a daily basis to suit the conditions. Though I'm in the UK at the moment & my winters are still on as I've hardly been anywhere and it's still been cold & wet - must swap them this weekend now summer is here Cool

Post #595635 28th May 2021 12:06pm
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dingg1



Member Since: 29 Jun 2013
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 889

2007 Range Rover Vogue SE 4.2 SC V8 Stornoway Grey

The thread that keeps on giving Laughing

Almost as good as the supermarket fuel debate Rolling Eyes

Post #595636 28th May 2021 12:26pm
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Martin2



Member Since: 15 Jun 2020
Location: Northamptonshire
Posts: 377

England 

dexion7 wrote:
Martin2 wrote:
Ignoring whether or not the most expensive tyres are best or the if the reviews are biased......which you may think makes it hard to choose, but I think there are enough tests/reviews out there with very similar results to give you enough information to make a properly informed choice..... Why would you skimp on safety so save a few quid?

Let's say a set of tyres will last 30k miles and you've got 22" wheels, going for a budget brand would save you around £100 a tyre, so £400 which isn't a small amount of money but is only a fraction over 1p per mile which is nothing compared to fuel/road tax/depreciation/maintenance etc.

My eldest will be getting his first car in the next few months and if it doesn't have a set of matching decent (not necessarily expensive!) tyres on, then changing them is the first thing I'll do. Probably for a very good set of AS tyres (eg Goodyear Vector or Conti All Season) as that will give him the best all year round option.


you seem to be saying you do believe reviews results generally and thus wish to buy expensive brands then you wonder why anyone would skimp, then you say you're going to use all-season tyres. if you were not going to skimp wouldn't you be better off changing to different tyres for the winter / summer? or fit soft compound for both seasons with reduced try life?


I keep saying that I don't buy on price!! Maybe you're assuming that the tope 2-3 tyres in a test are the most expensive, which maybe they are in some cases, but not always. As an example, I recommended a friend get either PS4 or F1 SS for his Golf GTI (18" wheels). The PS4S is the highest rated tyre in that size, but not by very much at all and is £160 vs £10-105 for the other 2 and a 'budget brand' tyre is £70-80. So a full set of PS4 will be £80 more than a Nankang....I really can't believe that anyone with sense would buy the budget tyre. I know you don't believe the tests, but it came last in 2 group tests and 39th out of 45 in the Autobild brake test.

There are budget tyres that did well in that test, better than some of the Premium brands, but I wouldn't dismiss them all but they aren't all available in the UK in the size you need (none in this particular example). Kinda Amera A1 is one of them, never heard of it, but they must have sent some large brown envelopes out! Cool

As I don't (on purpose!) test tyres to the extreme in poor conditions, then what else is there to go on other than reviews, as long as you're looking at a number of different sources? Price isn't an indicator of performance as far as I'm concerned, so the only other option is the 3 categories on the tyre label. I do have summer and winter tyres (and 2 sets of genuine wheels, so hardly skimping....) and have done so ever since I opted out of the company car scheme. I think the latest AS tyres are actually better suited to UK winters than full winters, as they aren't great when the temperature are in double figures and we get such a variety of temperatures week on week through the winder months. They aren't quite as good in the snow, but that's so rare where I live and they do seem to be pretty close to winters on snow braking in particular.

Although my view on the 'best' AS tyres is based on reviews..... Laughing MY19 SDV8 Autobiography


Last edited by Martin2 on 28th May 2021 12:38pm. Edited 2 times in total

Post #595637 28th May 2021 12:33pm
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