of course thats an option, but when you have spent soooo much on a new car you would expect it to stop for free 2002 td6 vogue, 06 supercharged facelift

Yes Delamo, I want to upgrade to Brembo brakes, but my local dealer says this will invalidate the warranty. I have written to L-R on the subject and await their reply. My question is should I have to do this to a new vehicle to get it functioning properly?

Regarding the new trailers brakes, I have been towing for long enough now to know whether a trailer has properly functioning brakes, I can feel them working. 2016 RR SDV8 Vogue (Aintree Green)
2020 BMW i3S
1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello (Verde Silverstone)
1974 Land-Rover SIII (Pastel Green)
1954 Lancia Aurelia B20 (Verde)
1956 Ferguson TEF 20

Yes I understand that darrenmax - but I can't believe the standard brakes are really that terrible for everyday usage - surely with the amount of early 2010MY TDV8's sold that don't have Brembo brakes fitted - so many would have complained if they didn't perform as they should and LR would have to review their decision not to have fitted them in the first place because of safety concerns, maybe even recall them?

There must be a set distance by some kind of authority who considers the performance of the standard brakes to be well within the acceptable limits.

I think that Rudler's main problem is when it comes down to towing, and the weights involved are very near, or on the 3500kg limit - because this is his business and his customers pride and joy being transported each day, as we speak, maybe it would be a good precaution to upgrade those on his car just to be on the safe side - regardless of whether he continues his dispute with LR about the brakes or not?

Furthermore - IF Rudler did choose to upgrade the brakes as his own precaution, maybe he could also arrange to have the brakes officially tested before and after Brembos are fitted - which might strengthen his dispute with Land Rover?

Edit - Sorry Rudler, the above was posted before I noticed your response

That's o.k. Delamo....I'll await L-R's response and keep you posted. My main gripe is that the brakes do work, but they are nowhere near as good as my old 2007 TDV8, perhaps a side by side test would be a good idea? 2016 RR SDV8 Vogue (Aintree Green)
2020 BMW i3S
1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello (Verde Silverstone)
1974 Land-Rover SIII (Pastel Green)
1954 Lancia Aurelia B20 (Verde)
1956 Ferguson TEF 20

If I had a towbar fitted you would be welcome to use mine.

I am very surprised that LR would consider invalidating your warranty if you chose to upgrade the brakes in the interests of safety, considering they are standard equipment on other Range Rover models of the same age.

If this is correct - does it mean that anyone with a Range Rover less than three years old, which (for example) is fitted with non standard 22" wheels, non standard tyres, uprated exhaust etc. have also had their warranty voided?

What if you got them to fit the Brembos - would they not even validate their own work?

Legally, their warranty validation arguement must be flawed

Yes..I think that if you read the small print, 22" wheels or modified exhaust would be a warranty problem.

I have asked L-R for Brembos, so its wait and see! 2016 RR SDV8 Vogue (Aintree Green)
2020 BMW i3S
1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello (Verde Silverstone)
1974 Land-Rover SIII (Pastel Green)
1954 Lancia Aurelia B20 (Verde)
1956 Ferguson TEF 20

they must know its a problem or they wouldnt fit brembos to the 2011 model if it wasnt necessary 2002 td6 vogue, 06 supercharged facelift

Brembos can be retro-fitted quite easily. Disks, pads, calipers and bolts. Only on the front and nothing else needs changing.

Same thing on D3/RR-Sport. All parts available from dealer. Not a huge job either. I did my D3 V8 in about 2 hours.

But, the only difference I noticed was that it needed less of a stomp to bring the car to a rather prompt halt. Again though, D3 V8's had larger brakes than the TDV6's anyway so the Brembo's were less of an upgrade in that scenario.

Having come from a TDv8 RRSport with Brembos (and now LR claim they have Brembos but without the logos as they had to pay a "licence" fee to have the logo....... ) I was quite surprised at the lack of stoppers on the FFRR compared to the RRS however, like all cars that are new to me I am getting used to it and have altered my driving technique to take the spongy feeling into account. I must admit that I "sold" an RRS for LR on the strength of an accident that I had last year - the Sport stopped from 60mph in less than 100 feet which so impressed the guy in the Audi S3 who was following me and was a witness that he contacted me about a month later to ask if he could come round and chat about buying used RRS's! He now has a very nice RRS Zambesi Silver First Edition 2018 Mini Countryman Cooper S E All4 PHEV in Melting Silver - it’s whisper quiet in EV and polluter modes

Any updates? I assume because of the Safety critical nature of this issue that LR would have provided a response by now..

I've had a reply.....they're looking into it! 2016 RR SDV8 Vogue (Aintree Green)
2020 BMW i3S
1998 Ferrari 550 Maranello (Verde Silverstone)
1974 Land-Rover SIII (Pastel Green)
1954 Lancia Aurelia B20 (Verde)
1956 Ferguson TEF 20

Very long post. Sorry. And sorry to chime in so late.

I have a couple of questions and an explanation (which I hope does not sound like a lecture from above but there are so many misconceptions on brakes...):
Rudler, are you sure that it is really a performance problem and not actually a 'feel' problem? Soft or spongy feeling brakes do not necessarily mean longer stops.

The reason I ask is because I prepared track cars professionally for a while (many years ago) and still do my own Porsche (which has Brembos on it) track prepping. I've spent quite some time dealing with brakes in theory and in practice - and in some extreme circumstances.

Brakes have a very simple job to do: they convert kinetic energy to heat energy. They're doing that job best when they apply the maximum amount of torque to each tire possible w/o the tire skidding. Brakes that are inadequate are that way for 2 main reasons: 1. they are not applying the maximum amount of torque to each tire because they are not balanced (biased) properly and 2. they are not able to convert the kinetic energy to heat (as happens with overheated brakes - they fade).

To address the problem of balance (bias), vehicle manufacturers adjust the size of the front and rear hydraulic systems to account for the vehicles weight distribution and weight transfer during braking. As most of the weight shifts to the front under heavy braking, the mechanical advantage given to the front brakes is much higher than to the rears to keep the rears from locking prematurely. This is also why increasing the size of just one pair of calipers - as in a Brembo conversion to fronts only - can actually increase stopping distances! (see long explanation below)

To address the second problem, the size of the brakes is generally increased. This simply allows for greater cooling surface. As the SC and the TDV8 are faster than the original 4.4 and TD6, the size of the brakes was increased to increase the thermal capacity and allow for stops from higher speed - especially in the case of repeated stops from higher speeds (and in your case the additional load of the trailer).

Checking for problems with bias used to be much easier w/o all the electronic helpers: you'd simply accelerate to 60mph and check if all 4 wheels lock at roughly the same point. As this is difficult to do on one run, you'd do this several times and check for problems with fading brakes at the same time. These days the only real measure of brake performance in your new TDV8 vs. the old would be test them side-by-side. I highly doubt that the LR engineers got the bias so 'off' that your old car would stop significantly short of the new car, though.

Assuming your brakes do not have some other problem, you should be into the ABS on every stop where you feel the brakes are inadequate. Are you? You never mention fade (and you specifically mention your wife screaming immediately), so I take it this is not the problem.

I am going to guess that you (and your wife) have a problem with the feel of the brakes - especially as you were already used to virtually the same vehicle. The bite will have been different, the pedal will have been stiffer, but I am willing to wager that the actual stopping distances on a panic stop will be very close to identical. Which makes your new TDV8 decidedly un-dangerous.

Kilovolt and Macdaddy describe problems that may well be heat related, so maybe the brakes are marginal in that sense. But those are not the problems you were describing.

In your shoes I would still complain all the way to the top to LR - having the only MY TDV8 w/o Brembos is a bit frustrating and who knows, maybe they'll spring for a set. Until then, do several panic stops so that you gain a feel for the absolute stopping power of your RR (and have your wife try too). If you do often enough, maybe you'll warp the rotors as well - and then you'll have real grounds for complaining.


I am copy-and-pasting my discussion on Brembos with Locky from RR.net. Close enough to the same topic that there is value in having it here. I hope I'm not boring everyone :

Quote:

remington wrote: I have the S/C Brembros on my 2010 and the standard brakes on my wife's HSE. The pedal feel is about the same. Braking power is obviously much better in the S/C.

Actually, 'braking power' should be about the same on the first stop.

The main difference between the Brembos and the standard brakes lies in the Brembo's thermal reserves - so on the 5th panic stop from 60mph to 0mph you'll feel a difference.

Quote:

Locky wrote: Hi all. I've just fitted Brembos on the front of my HSE. If anyone else has made the change or has factory Brembos i'm interested in what the difference is in pedal feel. I have to say it feels softer and the travel is slightly longer. Is this right? I was doing a brake fluid replacment at the same time so I pumped PLENTY of fluid though them so I'm 99% confident there is no air.
Am I just experiencing the pedal feel of a much larger set of calipers? I would have thought the pedal should feel more solid. Maybe I will bleed them again in a couple of days.

Increasing the size (piston volume) of calipers w/o increasing the size of the master cylinder will result in longer pedal travel and a softer feeling pedal. You are pumping the same amount of fluid into what basically amounts to a much larger cylinder (the volume of all caliper bores added). Think of an extreme example: if you take 2 equally sized syringes connected with a hose and press one 1" the other will move 1" and exert the same force you are applying. Now replace the second syringe with one the size of a 55gal drum. Pressing the 1st syringe 1" will result in a movement of 0.00000XX" on the 55gal drum syringe - but you'll be able to apply a huge force over that 0.00000XX" with the relatively small force you apply at the 1st syringe. Translated to your brakes this means that you are much more able to squeeze pads, flex calipers, etc, etc which all results in a softer pedal feel.

An just because you've increased the size of your front brakes does not mean you'll be able to stop better - your present combination of SC Brembos in front and stock calipers in back may actually have increased your panic-stop distance.

Determining the size of front calipers vs. rear calipers vs rotor diameter vs. master cylinder (vs. etc, etc) for optimal braking is a science. A vehicle manufacturer strives to have each tire doing the absolute maximum possible braking - that is max possible brake torque applied just short of locking the wheel. The factors that weigh most here (no pun intended) are weight distribution and weight transfer under braking. This determines the size of the front vs. rear brakes/rotors/etc. Given the fact that you've increased the mechanical advantage to the front brakes w/o changing the back, your fronts will now lock at a lower pedal pressure than the rears. And, at an optimal pedal pressure that would keep the fronts just shy of locking, you are not applying enough clamping force for maximum braking at the rear. This would actually increase your stopping distance.

All this describes a mechanical braking system and does not take into account the ABS. Theoretically, the ABS will modulate the brake pressure at each wheel so that it is at an optimum (maximum). But with brakes that are too greatly mis-matched, it is also quite possible to overtax the capacities of the ABS as the system is designed to operate within a certain parameter of pressure differentials.

Long answer to a short question .
To retain the pedal feel between the Brembos and the normal brakes, it is quite possible that LR increased the size of the master cyl. You'd have to check part #'s. In your shoes, I would change to the larger calipers in the rear as well 
RRC 2Dr, RRC 4Dr,
P38, and 2 L322s
(wife thinks I'm nuts - prob right, too)

I just collected my 2010 VSE and it is very nice, full of toys and technology. I found the brakes fine so far and better than on my td6.

However i noticed that the Front calipers have quite a bit of rust on them , i have not taken the wheels of yet and they work fine, they just look a bit unsightly through the wheels. Any one any ideas or should i see if they can be freplaced under warranty, should they look like that already? Current 2010 Vogue SE, Stornoway Grey with Storm Leather,Deployable steps, Vision Pack

Gone Range Rover 2005 TD6 Vogue
Gone Range Rover P38 4.6 Vogue
Gone Range Rover P38 4.0 HSE

So....would my 56 plate TDV8 have brembos? I only ask because the calipers are not black with brembo logos like my SC..... Land Rover Addict
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2009 5.0V8SC Autobiography
2006 4.2V8SC Autobiography
2004 4.4V8 Vogue

My brembo callipers are grey in colour. This appears normal compared to the black brembo on SC models.