Forget DPF cleaners and just force a regen with the GAP tool. Also do an oil change without delay. 2012 TDV8 Vogue (L322)

Thanks, okay will forget the dpf cleaner in a can.

Check hoses,
Oil change and filter change,
reset sevice indicator
then forced DPF regen

thanks

hi Luke sudden Red DPF warning usually mean a boost leak. Donut hoses, throttle body seal are typical culprits. Once you find the leak you can do a forced regen Cheers, Greg
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
2011 Vogue SE 4.4 with lots of toys in Stornaway

Quote:

hi Luke sudden Red DPF warning usually mean a boost leak. Donut hoses, throttle body seal are typical culprits. Once you find the leak you can do a forced regen

Here is an old post from 2 years ago which will give you some background and a crash course on DPFs!

Range Rover L322 wrote:

There are a lot of factors and behaviour varies. I have spent 3 years monitoring it and getting a handle on it.

Dr Rob's advice is good. If no Yellow warning light then leave it.

If you really want to figure it out, add the "Number of Demanded Regens" field (not "Successful Regens") which is not robust data. Then graph your mileage per regen, or at least get a handle on it.

Avoid, like the plague, people who tell you something is wrong with your car. They are usually basing their conclusion on their own cars and driving habits. The variation is massive. I have spent time on this with a) a LR Chief Tech of 20 years. b) One of the UKs best Diesel 4x4 modification specialists c) Some of the original L322 design team.

The long and short of it is DPF technology was new when they started producing this "environmentally friendly" solution. It is a bit of a bodge, exacerbated by the EGR and sequential turbos. Modding a 4.4, EGR delete and DPF removal is a bad idea. I personally think re-maps are a bad idea too but I fully accept there is some wiggle room there.

We had the engine out last year too. Basically a full rebuild because of this problem. My MPG on the dash is 22mpg local driving and 32 motorway but when I brim the tank it and calculate it manually the average it is always 20-22mpg irrespective of type of driving.

Excessive regens will not adversely affect your fuel economy - it is only an cupful of fuel that gets dumped into the DPF for a burn. How do I know this? I had excessive regens previously. My MPG was constant before and after. I had a full DPF clean too, it made no difference whatsoever. Terraclean? nothing - you may as well tap dance in sequinned hotpants and rollerblades for all the difference it makes... I had every injector off and sent back to Bosch. Turbos apart... I'll post a full list at the bottom.

I am fairly certain I am the only person here who has ever replaced a DPF and Cat on an L322 with new. My AB was ultra low mileage (40k now) from the Isle of Man and a peach.... except I discovered it had been driven through a deep salt water ford then left to stand, damaging the DPF and Cat from the inside. This caused me to do massive analyses, all the while being wrong-footed by well intentioned (but ultimately wrong) people who based their conclusions on their own cars and driving habits. I also know a DPF almost never breaks. The DPF itself is just a ceramic gauze and DPF issues are a symptom of another problem. We also identified another suspected issue. If that's not all crazy enough for you here's where it goes into another layer of Inception... in 2011-2012 it is "known" there were a number of substandard batches of steel sent to Ford from China, which we suspect my DPF and Cat were made from. - the 4x4 modification guru mentioned above knows and has experienced greater corrosion on some Ford sourced parts for around that time than should reasonably be expected.

However, with this damaged DPF my car would run ok most of the time as long I was not in heavy traffic. It would regen at any speed. The algorythm works so the frequency of regen increases. I have had the original design brief explained.

Your car sounds fine. Start graphing it if you really want to get a handle on it....

High Pressure Smoke Test
New inlet manifold near side rear corner.
Factory Turbo Drain Mod.
New nearside outlet manifold.
Exhaust Clamp.
Induction system smoke tested.
Injectors checked.
DPF checked with borescope.
Turbos checked with borescope.
EGR removed, cleaned and replaced.
New EGR sensor.
ECU software updated.
Exhaust crack welded.
MAF sensor replaced (old ones still for sale on ebay!)
MAP sensor replaced.
Removed all covers.
Cut & clean DPF (x2).
210 litres of cleaning fluid - the most they have ever used on any car, ever.
Removed engine & gearbox.
Stripped engine to allow access to find air leak.
Sent injectors for testing.
Injectors refurbished.
New Catalytic Converter.
New DPF.
New exhaust manifolds.

It's helping some owners - EGR Blanking plate and remap etc

https://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic69435.html

Thank you all, I will report back and let you know how I get on.
On initial inspection I cannot find any cracked hoses or signs of leaks from the intercooler circuit.

I will keep investigating and get the iiDTool up and running when it arrives.

Well, good news. Oil change, service reset and forced regen did the trick.

I took checked for signs of leaks in the intercooler circuit, removed the donut and checked the 4 rubbers. everything looked fine under close examination. No signs of residue leak anywhere.

Soot level was 31.8g when I set off and after about 30/40 minutes was down to 2.8g until I ran out of traffic and then cleared all codes and back to normal.

Only other remaining fault is attached.

Not sure attachment worked, only remaining fault is,

P040D-00 (2f) Exhaust gas recirculation temperature sensor A - Circuit high

OK sounds promising, fingers crossed. Some thoughts and pointers, bear with me:

1) The value on the IIDTool "Number of successful regenerations" is neither robust nor accurate. "Number of demanded regenerations" is reliable.
2) The oil dilution figure on the IIDTool is calculated, not measured. i.e. the value shown is a product of the number of regens completed or requested (we don't know which), however it is not a good value.
3) The oil change you performed, while being good practice, will not affect or influence the overall issue you are having.
4) I dont know about the EGR recirc value being high. I can point you in the direction of someone who can!..
5) I would drive it a lot now and see how you get on. It's the only way to really know if it is fixed.
6) Watch your soot levels and regens live, getting a handle on the regen frequency of your car will help you. (DPFs do not all perform the same, similarly the regen demand frequency is not a straight line).
7) Forced regens should be performed as little as possible and only when really necessary as a last resort. Pat at IID didn't release this function on for years in case people relied on it. There is potential collatoral damage to the ceramic gauze in the DPF.

FYI my thoughts are the result of 5 years of talking to some very experienced LR mechanics and the original L322 design team. I and some of my friends gave up on this forum a few years ago when know-alls started arguing. Hopefully it is back on track here now with nice and helpful people. Life's too short to argue or try to one-up strangers online...

Cheers,

Matt 2012 L322 4.4 TDV8 AB low mileage - a peach
1986 V8 Defender 90 County ex-Swiss Army - Red everything....

My preferred Independent: Roy Hardy. R & B AUTOS LTD, 20 Brook Road, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 2BH (Ex LR Chief Technician)

Question(s) for Range Rover L322: do you know the pressure differential pressure sensor reading for a (your) new DPF?
If so, do you know the relation between sensor reading and pressure differential in mbar?
I've had my dpf cleaned twice in 238000km and the workshop measured the clean pressure differential to be 5 mbar.
Reading how the ECM has to learn new sensor values (even when the tubes are changed) I understand a 1:1 comparison between sensor values is not accurate, it may give an idea though. 2012 4.4TDV8
2000 Honda S2000

Range Rover L322 wrote:

L322 TDV8
When the LR Technical Manual is used in conjunction with the IIDTool it can be misleading as to what is a normal / appropriate DPF Soot Fill level. I have spent 4 months, 3000 miles and a lot of money figuring this out. A number of people have been worrying completely un-necessarily like I did, I hope this stops that.

Bear in mind L322s rarely work completely identically!

1) According to 2 Land Rover Chief Technicians and one of the original L322 design engineers the DPF will happily run indefinitely with a Soot Fill of 20,21,22,23g. What I mean by this is it keeps demanding regens and regenning a little like 23g down to 20g etc. . This is perfectly normal and nothing to worry about. You will only go up to a Yellow Warning Light if you are in the middle of a city, heavy traffic or repeatedly doing short trips (in which case this is the wrong car for you).
2) Regens do not occur on a straight line graph and the Regen frequency increases as the Soot Fill goes higher. It will regen repeatedly over about 20g as long as you are moving.
3) The most common reason for a DPF Yellow Warning Light is taking multiple trips of less than approximately 4 miles.
4) Do not think that every regen must take you to 3-7g. You will only get down to that level when you are on open road.
5) The speed requirement for a Regen over 20g changes, it is not necessary to be going faster than 37mph. It will Regen at slow speeds, as long as you aren't sitting in very slow traffic or a traffic jam!
6) There are somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 L322 TDV8s out there, with only a tiny handful of DPF problems -most concerns are people seeing what they (completely understandably) wrongly interpret as "high" Soot Fill on their IIDTool after getting 1 or 2 DPF Full Yellow Warning Light instances.
7) New Land Rovers engines are designed and expected to produce Soot at a rate of 1g per 10 miles for a 2 litre engine.
8. Crucially: Bear in mind Land Rover and Ford would not design an engine and management system that would require user intervention or additional tools in order to operate properly in any of their cars, let alone their flagship model.

I have tested the above over 3000 miles of mixed driving conditions including no open road for weeks at a time. I spreadsheeted, documented and graphed all the data. I have also done all of the above in consultation with two LR Chief Technicians and one of the original design team from the L322, they 100% concur and guarantee this is working precisely as designed. I have this in writing from Land Rover.

Now there are other factors that can give you a DPF Full Yellow Warning Light. Like a blocked MAF sensor. However it is a good rule of thumb that if you don't have a Yellow Warning Light you probably don't have a problem.

and here's the ultimate advice: if you do get a DPF Full Yellow Warning Light, go for a drive... one of two things will happen - you will get a Red Warning Light and Limp mode or the Warning Light will go out. Also this is not the right car if you are in a heavily congested city, these care are completely un-suitable for Tokyo, Mumbai or Central London!.

If you would like additional info please feel free to ask or PM me.
I hope this saves someone the time and money I spent on it.



.

Many thanks to GGDR, Range Rover L322 and others for their extensive and extremely helpful posts. I must admit the post above was particularly reassuring and led me to believe that I may be worrying unnecessarily and falling prey to the "DPF paranoia."

However, I have a specific question which I'm hoping someone can answer as a newbie to the DPF world.

A bit of background:
I recently upgraded our beloved 2004 4.4L V8 Vogue to a 2011 TDV8 Vogue SE and on the initial drive home got the Amber DPF Full warning. We weren't sitting in traffic. But it's impossible to know what the previous owner's experience was and whether this was to forecast some greater issue. To be honest, the DPF and oil dilution issues were perhaps the single reason I was on the fence whether to go for a TDV8.

Fortunately my initial panic subsided after about a 15-20 minute drive on an A Road averaging about 40-50mph and the warning light disappeared. Subsequently and thanks to this thread, I have begun monitoring the soot levels and regens with Car Scanner Pro.

From my limited 2 week experience, the active regens seem to kick in once the soot level is over 19g. And the best of approx 4 or 5 cycles I've monitored lowered the level from over 20 down to 4.71 at which point I decided I could probably head home. Previous attempts had brought the level down to about 10 or 11 before the "Incomplete regen status" went to 0 and the "Successful regen" counter clicked up, indicating it had completed.

However, this time, even with the soot level at 4.71, the "Incomplete regen status" never changed from 1 back to 0 nor did the "Successful regens" counter click up.

Ever since, the "Incomplete regen status" has remained at 1 and despite several more regen cycles as evidenced by the "Demanded regenerations" number going up, including one that went from 20.78 down to 10.59, I haven't managed to record another "successful regen" nor get the "incomplete status" to change.

After about 65 miles of solid 50mph driving beyond that regen attempt, the 10.59 began to creep up so I pulled over at a service station and thought to read the error codes. That's when I discovered it had triggered a P2458(66) "DPF regeneration process - duration malfunction." That seemed to explain why perhaps it wasn't registering a completed cycle or that it had taken longer than the ECU would expect.

I cleared that code but the "incomplete status" remains the same.

Question is: is there any way to force the ECU to register that the regen is completed?

And should I be worried about the P2458-66 error code if there were no other related codes?

From what I can find in the Workshop Manual, it indicates you should check for related DTC's (which didn't come up) or in worse case that the DPF is full and needs replacing (which I'm hoping isn't the case).

Many thanks in advance for your help.

Click image to enlarge

Click image to enlarge

 Current:
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE

Previous:
2004 4.4 V8 Vogue

Hi Upland Villa,

Your conclusions are completely normal and you accurately identified possible DPF Paranoia!! Figuring that out is half the battle - well done!!

1) It sounds like your car is regenning as designed.
2) The "Successful Regen" field is neither robust nor reliable. It is not accurate and cannot be used for any analysis - ignore it.
3) Same for the "Incomplete Regen" field - ignore - it is inaccurate and no help.
4) The "Demanded Regen" field is the one you want to watch to know when your car is ... demanding a regen That is always accurate and populated correctly.
5) Regens are usually first demanded at 19.7grams of soot (inferred). Then demanded incrementally more frequently as the inferred value increases.
6) Ignore the Oil Dilution figure. It is also calculated not measured and doesnt really tell you anything other than triggering the "Change Oil" warning, which if you are regularly servicing won't matter.
7) With respect to the "DPF regeneration process - duration malfunction." I would ignore this if your car is working ok.
Sounds like your diagnostics are working ok but the IIDTool is the Gold standard and most of us know it best.
9) Most important ** If your car is regeninning from about 20-23grams to 3-6 grams then your DPF and regen process is working perfectly. **


It is completely natural to look at DPF performance as that is where the issue is seen, however the DPF is seldom (~99% of the time) neither the cause nor the problem - it is best to look for the causes of soot rather than the receptacle.

Hope that helps - in summary, this topic is a wormhole and easy to drive yourself mad. As Dr Rob always says - if you are not getting red warnings just drive it.

Best,

Matt 2012 L322 4.4 TDV8 AB low mileage - a peach
1986 V8 Defender 90 County ex-Swiss Army - Red everything....

My preferred Independent: Roy Hardy. R & B AUTOS LTD, 20 Brook Road, Wimborne, Dorset, BH21 2BH (Ex LR Chief Technician)

Last edited by Range Rover L322 on 11th May 2024 9:53pm. Edited 2 times in total

Hi Matt,

Thank you very much for your prompt and thorough reply. That's all incredibly helpful and reassuring. You've likely saved me -- and many others -- from a whole lot of excessive worrying!

I'll probably continue to monitor for awhile, just to better understand how it functions. And because we can. I know the IID Tool is the one to have and will likely invest in one at some point. For now (and considering the price), Car Scanner Pro has been a good start.

Many thanks again, and hopefully all will behave as it should and I won't need to bother you again.

Kind regards... and happy motoring! Current:
2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE

Previous:
2004 4.4 V8 Vogue

As Matt quoted…if it clears on an Amber after a run then it’s working fine.
Just drive it  Gone to a good home: 2011 4.4 TDV8 Vogue SE Buckingham Blue with Ivory and clear glass = "Rory"
New Defender D300 90
1974 Series 3 Lightweight = "Millie"
My preferred specialist: www.glenrands.co.uk
--------------------------------------------------